A $500 Spyder?!?!

[Xyxyll]

Thought I'd point out that not only do I sport a Spyder, but I sport a Dark Angel IR3.

[greg]

i wasnt bashign iw as just moved.....

[Xyxyll]

greg: none of my ranting was aimed towards you.

[tony3]

Originally posted by Xyxyll
Even though Gabriel brought up a very old post, he made a GREAT point.

Tony3: Sorry buddy... but paint to bore match is an aweful lot. The only other thing that makes a difference is consistancy of air behind the ball. A good air source and regulator solve that. Don't know if you'd argue this or not, but your marker has a regulator too!

The first barrel kit that came out into the mass production market was the freak I believe. SP made it off of lapcos Idea for a barrel kit. They did this because shockers and cockers of the day were closed bolt, so it is possible for paint to roll out of the barrel. That was a good reason. Then they started saying all this non-sense about paint to barrel match that is completely false. Stuff about barrels in paintball is all therory IMO. No one does real and accurate tests testing these therories so the whole idea is thrown out the window in terms of reliablity. All I know is my gun is consistent and accurate with a 686 paint and a 691 barrel.

Originally posted by Meph


See, that's the thing. Does it shoot great? Sure! However it's more than just the accuracy. Accuracy on everything is always debatable and everybody gives different opinion.

But a chronograph doesn't lie! It doesn't have a special feel or what have you or hoohoodilly. Just the facts, ma'am.

Take your small paint. Say Dusk or Evil or anything. Use it in a properly fitted barrel, .684-.686 what ever the bore size of that bag tends to be. Shoot over the chrono and adjust to 280. You'll be shooting money.

Now slap on that .693 bore barrel. What just happened? Your velocity dropped! You now have to crank your pressure up more to get it back up to 280, and along with that your velocity spikes are more eratic than before!!! I guarantee it.

So accuracy? Eh, not so much a factor. Honestly I've used small paint in a medium/large barrel and shot fine. It's More about your consistency from each shot, and more importantly how efficient your marker will be at the same velocities.

Well, I don't understand this because this weekend I was using hellfire and my big bore barrel and getting +/- 1 on my impulse. At one point I got 3 same readings on the chrono, and I turned it on and off before each one to make sure it was reading them.

[Evil1]

I say if some people want to spend a lot on a spyder, let them. Most will see it as a learning experience. I don't care what other people shoot as long as they play honestly and safely. One guy on my team has a Black Dragun and loves it. He is also one of the most aggresive on my team and the gun works good for him and we never ridicule him for his marker choice, he ridicules us for shooting EMags all in good fun though.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by tony3

No one does real and accurate tests testing these therories so the whole idea is thrown out the window in terms of reliablity.

So, you are saying that the extensive tests AGD performed are neither "real" or "accurate?" Interesting.

[JesseB]

xyxyll: no an emag/xmag is not my idea of a true electro. I am referring to guns based on a 'noid driven design that cocks and recocks the gun. The only sear tripping electros (do not use electronics to control the actual functioning of the marker but they do have a microswitch that is electronically controlled to fire the gun) are the e/xmags, and spyders. The Espyder is a piece of crap, seriously... They churn out several hundred thousand at poor tolerances only bothering to spend $5000 on milling. If you do a little research on tooling, machinery, CAD programs, Electricity, Man hours, and miscellaneous costs then you will find that $5000 means little to nothing when it comes to milling. that $5000 they spent was burnt in probably a little over a month and they whipped out a few thousand guns... not too impressive if you don't beleive the hype that was printed in the pages of APG.

Oh it has a 15* asa woooooo So does my impulse, black magic and dark. big deal its a 5 buck part that they threw in the deal. Top cocking bolt? So does an avenger. No $100 reg? The impulse has one and the msrp is $500 why didn't kingman throw in a reg? 40 full cycles ehh? DO IT!!! I am not challenging you little man I am just saying kingman is out there to make their bucks in mass quantities, not with the quality of their product. Sure the spyder is a good gun. But I dont have any need for one I have mags, a cocker, impulses, a dark angel and a new dye matrix, so I have no real need for one. If I was new I would probably pick up an E99 as they are getting to be pretty reasonable.

Gabe: $400 into $75 that is 475, then you are gonna need a tank, Since you are obviously trying to be cheap Ill give you CO2 insted of air but on that tank if you want any consistency going to your stabilizer then you are gonna need an on off and anti siphon. thats another 35-40. so that is $505. you forgot a barrel. once again you are a cheapskate so we will go with a good all around smart parts progressive. Sound good? another $35, $540 now. a hopper hmmm well since your gun freakin pwns now then you are going to need at least a 12V revvy. $45 whoa wait up we done spent $585 bucks on a $75 gun to go balling with. Where did I miss the part where this was considered a sane thing to do? Sorry but I would have taken all that bling and got a impulse, cocker, or mag. Oh and the TKO mag thing. A second reg? do you know anything about mags? and you could easily upgrade to an intelli, and 48/3000 air tank, for what your spyder there cost.

[Xyxyll]

They churn out several hundred thousand at poor tolerances only bothering to spend $5000 on milling.

I agree, but they also don't need to spend a lot on milling. Look at the #s. They are focusing their attention on the newcomers to the sport. There really isn't enough respect from the more experienced palayers to focus towards them. But then again, the Spyder has as much potential to perform perfectly in tournament play as an Autococker, Xmag, Angel 4, Impulse, etc.

Oh it has a 15* asa woooooo So does my impulse, black magic and dark. big deal its a 5 buck part that they threw in the deal. Top cocking bolt? So does an avenger. No $100 reg? The impulse has one and the msrp is $500 why didn't kingman throw in a reg?

lol, I never mentioned stock upgrades. Kingman wants to keep costs down and keep MSRP's down for the consumer. And that $5 part is the same on your Impulse. I never said anything about top cocking. Top cocking isn't a factor in performance. I never said a Spyder had to "look" good.

No reg? Eh.. sure, a handful of the Kingman markers do come with regs, but I will admit they suck. But then again. Take a $90 eSpyder, put a Max-Flow on there, and you have a $170 marker that's as consistant as the $400 Impulse (same air systems).

40 full cycles ehh? DO IT!!!

If I had some kind of sound/video recorder, I'd gladly show you. But since I don't, ask Nerobro... he may have a recording. Just look at the way a Spyder operates. How fast do you think it's only mechanically capable of?

I am just saying kingman is out there to make their bucks in mass quantities, not with the quality of their product.

That's true, I never said they weren't.

Sure the spyder is a good gun. But I dont have any need for one I have mags, a cocker, impulses, a dark angel and a new dye matrix, so I have no real need for one.

I am not trying to convince you to go out and buy a Spyder. Any of your markers will send the same paintball out at their target at the same velocity. All I'm asking for is some respect for the Spyder. There is no reason a Spyder can't perform the same as a "high-end" gun.

[NGp8ball]

or u can jst spend a 130 on a marker with eframe and put a timmy bolt in there... jst dont forget apoc, hes gotta sweet spyder too

[Evil1]

The new Angel4 sucks! The speed and the ir3 even the LCD is better than the 4.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by AGDFlash
The new Angel4 sucks! The speed and the ir3 even the LCD is better than the 4.

WOW! Random nasty comment alert!

As far as I can tell, the speed and the IR3 are basicly the same thing as the 4. Neither of those "suck" so I don't see how the 4 can.

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by JesseB
Gabe: $400 into $75 that is 475, then you are gonna need a tank, Since you are obviously trying to be cheap Ill give you CO2 insted of air but on that tank if you want any consistency going to your stabilizer then you are gonna need an on off and anti siphon. thats another 35-40. so that is $505. you forgot a barrel. once again you are a cheapskate so we will go with a good all around smart parts progressive. Sound good? another $35, $540 now. a hopper hmmm well since your gun freakin pwns now then you are going to need at least a 12V revvy. $45 whoa wait up we done spent $585 bucks on a $75 gun to go balling with. Where did I miss the part where this was considered a sane thing to do? Sorry but I would have taken all that bling and got a impulse, cocker, or mag. Oh and the TKO mag thing. A second reg? do you know anything about mags? and you could easily upgrade to an intelli, and 48/3000 air tank, for what your spyder there cost.

Yes, it is very easy to spend $500 more on a gun, but remember, not just a spyder. And yeah, i didnt include the hopper, tank (i have 68/4500 nitro, thanks), or barrel because you would have to do that to ANY 'gun you buy. Yes, even the mag. So, lets see... TKO mag $300. Ule Body $150. Go X valve $225. intelliframe, or y-grip $95. however, if you want an electro (like the spyder above, sear tripping) it'll cost you $250 for a centerflag. If you wanna go accessories, ok, and we'll make the prices even. $45 for the revvy, $35 for the barrel. Now, you know we cant go CO2 on an x-valved mag, which is one of the most popular upgrades, so there's at least $80 for a little 45/3000 steel tank, which you should be able to get about a hopper off of before you have to air up again. No second reg? No problem, not needed. At all. I was just making a comparison. so that brings your total to: $930 for intelliframe or y-grip. 1035 for a centerflag mag. now granted, if youre gonna drop this all at once, get an e-mag. Alot of people upgrade over time, though, so if thats the route you're gonna take, this is what it would cost. With a TKO. If you start from scratch it'll cost you more. Just think about it, champ.

On a side note, I want it made clear that I LOVE mags, just pointing out that ALL guns have thier weaknesses, not just spyders.


*EDIT* And when you were listing sear tripping electros, you forgot to mention ALL of the e-cockers. ALL of then. Did I mention every single one of them was sear-tripping?

[JesseB]

well by definition the ecocker uses electronics to actually cock the marker and fire it. So it is not a "sear tripper" because of the electronically controlled pneumatics.

well I listed basics that were needed and the basics needed for a amg are alot simpler than the upgrades you listed. All you need is air, and an intelli really. Sure xvalves and all that are great but when it comes to a basic bare bones gun that is competitive to an e spyder. I am not bashing the spyder here I am just saying that for the money you can get alot better performance elsewhere.

[Xyxyll]

The ecocker uses a sear to trip the hammer. Then it uses pneumatics to return the assembly. Sounds much like a mechanical cocker (sear tripper) with an electronic 3-way. Hmm... so just making the 3-way electronic removes the "sear-tripper" from its name... even though it continues to use a sear to trip the hammer?

[nerobro]

What does it matter? What makes an electropneumatic gun "electro" is the fact the trigger is no longer mechanical.

Anything else doesn't matter. Saying a gun sucks becuase of it's operating method is a pretty poor option.

I mean a cocker and a sterling are "the same gun" operationally. But. The sterling is slower due to ram problems.

the eualizer and mag are the same gun, in theory. But the mag works better.

the VM-68 and spyder are "the same gun" Where the spyder will cycle faster than 50hz, and the vm is around half that.

Beacuse one gun uses a ram, and one gun uses a spring loaded hammer, why should the ram driven gun be better?

they aren't.

In fact, if you'd like to use the timmy as an example. That gun takes 10ms to make the bolt START to move. The spyder, is halfway done with it's entire cycle by the time those 10ms are up.

Notice that even with eyes timmys only shoot in the mid 20's. My spyder, WITHOUT eyes was shooting 23bps. (that's the ROF the board was set for... we didn't adjust it at all for the majority of setup and testing) Without the superior cycle rate I don't think this would be feasable.

Don't knock a gun because you see the way it operates to be "wrong" in your eyes.