Dye signs with Smart Parts!!!

[JEDI]

Well as usual, this thread has been used as a way of doo-doo flinging, and "one upping" each other.

Its easy to criticise DYE for their decision because you say they're a big company. I ask, what if Tom had to do what ever necessary to stay in business? How can you say- "Well AGD wouldn't do that" I said "What if?" Just because Tom is honest, and believes in quality, you think that he's not also a business man?

I'm sure DYE wasnt thrilled to pay Smart Parts. So in otherwords, they had to, in order to continue business as usual. And sure, of course they wanted to make their "Stupid little Matrix". Why should they be denied making an electro? Isn't that what everyone is arguing over anyway?

Why are they being criticised just because they're a large business. Should they sell half of everything Dave Youngblood has worked hard to creat, just to look better in your eyes? So now businesses shouldn't strive to be larger, for fear that they'll be criticized for doing so?

I just dont think, that the blame of one greedy company should be spread to everyone that is forced -(I say forced because they wouldn't choose to be in this position had Smart Parts not started this)- to comply. If Tom dumps his line of electros in order to continue on, would it be fair if I started yelling "Boycott AGD- they let down all their electro fans!!!"

[beam]

I don't know what specifics surround the companies that have made agreements with SP, but I can say that there are some cases where a stand needs to be made.

SP threatens the industry we love. Now, companies have to choose sides, either you will settle with SP (for whatever amount...maybe even for free) or you will decide to make a stance and not settle as long as they have this lawsuit.

It seems that some company owners lack the spine to make a stand. Don't give me this...gotta put food on the table crap. When it comes to principles, you gotta decide what you stand for. The companies that have settled don't stand for the same things that I do and AGD does.

They have chosen to settle out of fear. Or perhaps, they hope to make a ton of money if, when the dust settles, SP wins. Who knows. The fact of the matter is they caved. Might not have cost them much, but they caved. And good product or not, they have chosen the side against me.

[shartley]

[No sKiLLz]

No sKiLLz real issue with the patent situation:

Guys, we were set up. Smart Parts held off submitting their patent, patiently waiting for electros to be widespread so they could broaden it to encompass all electros. They have no love for the game, they are in this for the money. This is an integrity issue. Two patent lawyers involved in a previous scam are going to have unmitigated control over our sport. Doesn't that make anyone else nervous? Has anyone here ever met a lawyer?

[beam]

Originally posted by shartley

Nonsense...they do have principles...it just so happens that having a backbone isn't one of them and making money to "survive" is.

Again, I concede that I do not have all of the facts surrounding the different settlements. But I do not think I will be eating any sort of pie either. I believe that what I know about the SP lawsuit is enough for me to know that companies need to make a choice. Either you aren't going to stand for this CRAP and make a stand against it or you are going to be only concerned with self preservation and screw anyone else.

I wonder if that is some of what is going on. I can only speculate, but if some of these companies who have settled were offered pretty good deals by SP, they may have taken the chance to preserve their business. But at what expense? By settling, companies (especially big ones) are reducing any ability of the rest of the companies in the industry to mount a unified defense. Seeing a "breaking in the ranks" only helps to spur SP on.

I would also speculate that companies who hold out and try to fight this crazyness will not be offered as sweet of deals as Dye was offered. (though I do not know what that was)

[dre1919]

The way I see this deal of Dye's is just like the one Smart Parts is trying to pull off...business. That's it. Obvisouly, both companies (all three if you count National) don't really care about the "growth" of the sport or ethics per se, because their actions can be viewed as evil, greedy, or damaging. However, whether these allegations are true or not is a matter of perspective. Dye and SP both are businesses, and as such are in it to make money.

Plain and simple.

Both companies obviously like paintball (supplying it and playing it) as evidenced by the fact they both have pro players or former pro players prominantly involved. But, moreso than the love of the game both companies possess, they both want their companies to grow exponentially (name a business owner who wouldn't). They both want to make as much money as possible and become huge. So, here is an opprotunity to make those goals happen. From their standpoint, maybe they see that a good majority of the sport likes and buys their products so they see this as a chance to supply all these people with better (in their opinion) products than anyone else. Then in turn, they make more money, so to them everybody wins. Of course, not everyone likes or buys Dye/SP stuff so those people will cry foul. Hell, even some who do like/buy their stuff will cry foul because of what it might "do to the sport".

Folks, these companies are concerned about their growth and money making potential first and foremost. They supply a relatively young, up and coming, fringe sport at the moment and want to insure they will continue to keep doing what they're doing for years to come. They aren't concerned about the game going away or closing shop...they know it's here to stay. They also know that some people didn't exorcise patent rights on some things to help the sport grow. Well, it grew...and now they probably see those decisons as an aggressive business choice someone didn't take then, and they are willing to make now. Their loss, Dye/SP's gain. Everyone in this sport will groan and grumble about this if SP wins their lawsuit, some may boycott, but in the end if they win and you want to play with what they have to sell you will buy from them. If you don't, buy from a mechanical company and go on.

I personally don't agree with what they want to do in this lawsuit, but I see it as an aggressive business decision and one which will increase their revenue tremendously. They're willing to take the gamble that people won't want to revert to playing all mechanical, so for them it's a good deal. As for Dye, well they probably figure it's better to be the left hand of the devil instead of in his path, so to speak.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by shartley

Unfortunatly I think if there's a lot of crow to be eaten most of it'll be left on the table.

My prediction is that there will be a lot of vocal people trying to fade quietly into the background or just as loudly proclaming a completely new position.

With that said, IMHO I don't think the re-vamped patent will hold up in court.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by beam


Either you aren't going to stand for this CRAP and make a stand against it or you are going to be only concerned with self preservation and screw anyone else.

I'm not attacking, or bashing your opinion, but... What do you consider as "making a stand"? Is a small company making electro markers supposed to make no preperation in the event Smart Parts does win? Are they supposed to just allow themselves to be sued for everything they're worth? What kind of "mounted effort" do you expect to happen? Are companies all gonna get together and pool their money and hire some super lawyer, and go in as one voice?

That just doesn't happen. Companies are going to seperately fight for their own interests. It's business. Its like saying a bunch of smaller sharks are gonna gang up on one larger shark. It's not going to happen. There's not going to be some glorious revolt against Smart Parts. SP is going to single out one company at a time, and seriously affect they money making ability.

Look at Indian Creek Designs. They're being hurt by this RIGHT NOW. What do you propose they do? Do you think they have the option to believe in some distant gathering of Paintball companies to come help them.

I dont think some of you realize the magnitude of whats going on. Its not about values, or ethics, for some of these companies. Its a real issue at their door step now. They have to act quickly, with some fore-thought of the future. And now on top of it, they have to worry about a few know-nothing paintball players boycotting the few sales they do make.

[shartley]

Originally posted by beam
Nonsense...they do have principles...it just so happens that having a backbone isn't one of them and making money to "survive" is.

Again, I concede that I do not have all of the facts surrounding the different settlements. But I do not think I will be eating any sort of pie either. I believe that what I know about the SP lawsuit is enough for me to know that companies need to make a choice. Either you aren't going to stand for this CRAP and make a stand against it or you are going to be only concerned with self preservation and screw anyone else.

I wonder if that is some of what is going on. I can only speculate, but if some of these companies who have settled were offered pretty good deals by SP, they may have taken the chance to preserve their business. But at what expense? By settling, companies (especially big ones) are reducing any ability of the rest of the companies in the industry to mount a unified defense. Seeing a "breaking in the ranks" only helps to spur SP on.

I would also speculate that companies who hold out and try to fight this crazyness will not be offered as sweet of deals as Dye was offered. (though I do not know what that was)

Originally posted by TheTramp
Unfortunatly I think if there's a lot of crow to be eaten most of it'll be left on the table.

My prediction is that there will be a lot of vocal people trying to fade quietly into the background or just as loudly proclaming a completely new position.

With that said, IMHO I don't think the re-vamped patent will hold up in court.

[Tyger]

This needs to be said

You know what. I really have stopped caring if SP wants to run the paintball electro world. But just for fun, let's put a few things in perspective.

The first company to sign an agreement wiht Smart Parts was National Paintall Supply, correct? They make the Timmy, or at least market it, correct? Ok, fine. What else do they own? Draxxus. Who runs Draxxus? Richmond Itallia. What did he "invent"? X-Ball. And who plays X-ball? The Philly Americans, previously the "All Americans". A team run by the owners of Smart Parts. Follow the connections, connect the dots, make a whole picture.

How blind do you have to be to see that it was a matter of convinenence to sign a deal there between SP and NPS? "You don't sue us, and you can play X-ball." Or "We'll sign with you, and we'll overlook that really nasty thing you did to Bob Long before he walked onto the field and cut you into the X-Ball deal." And when you look at it, Don't the Philly Americans have "Draxxus" on thier jerseys, wear V-force goggles, and all that? Hmm...

Let's look at the DYE deal too. DYE is Dave Youngblood. If the X-balles don't wear V-force goggles, the X-ball people wear Dye. I believe the X-ball ironmen wear DYE jerseys too, right? So it makes sense again if DYE signs a deal, even if they don't have an electro on the market. It puts them into the "Happy family".

As far as I'm concerned, this is buisness. It serves the intrest of all involved with X-Ball to sign with each other to form a power block, and "Stand united" against those not "in" the crowd. ESPECIALLY when the Gardners were "Instrumental" in signing "Dick Clark Productions" onto airing X-ball. Hmm, do you think that they really want inter-party warfare when DCP is looking at airing their league? Especially the war between the guys who run the league and the guys that got DCP to the barganing table? Of course not. Common sense, connect the dots.

Let the big boys have their games and run their little industry. Let me tell you something folks. WE are the game. X-Ball may be on TV, but until they make it affordable for the casual player, guess what will be played wek in and week out. Yep. Us "little people" in the woods, in the fields, on the hyperball courts, playing plain ol' paintball with two flags, a bunch of opponents, and some guy in an orange vest saying "GO!"

And if SP decides to lock the electro market, fine. My e-mag has a "Manual" switch too.

-Tyger

edit add : I know you all are gonna be frothing when you read this, and I'm expecting a nasty phone call from the Gardners or National. But it needed to be said. I'm sick of reading about all this stuff going on, knowing full well it's posturing and all "I'll scratch your back" kinda stuff. But now that it's out there, I'm done. I said it, I'm done with it.

[beam]

I agree that there is very little that we as consumers can do to affect the outcome of events that is surely to come. Good or bad...it will come.

With that, I don't think it takes any personal investment on my part in order to "feel" what a company like ICD is going through.

The "principals don't pay the bills" arguement won't last as far as I can throw it. If you believe that then you probably don't have a problem with under-age kids making clothes in factories oversees...or the pimps that run the underage-kidnapped girl brothels in some remote part of the world. I mean, really, those pimps have to "pay the bills". No, there is a thing called business ethics. It is an elusive concept, and one where business owners have to make tough choices. We have whole government agencies (like the EPA) whose responsibility it is to make sure that companies don't violate principles just so they can "pay the bills".

How does it help the industry if companies settle with SP now? Before this lawsuit has been settled? It seems that when this was all announced, the rest of the industry was united against these actions. Now, that coalition is fractured and dwindling, leaving smaller companies who haven't settled to fight the battle alone.

What will I do if AGD settles? Well, first off, I will be very disappointed. They didn't even put up a fight against a ruling that SOOOO many people believe won't stand up.

I believe that there are other examples in industry that would make this look like peanuts, but does that diminish the fact that this is still WRONG? It's like complaining about a speeding ticket for 10 over because there are sooo many other people going 15-20 over.

Personally, I try to buy products from companies that I believe practice good ethics. (This is becoming more difficult by the year....which says something about our business practices) For example, I don't shop at Abercrombie and Fitch. Why? I don't believe in their business practices of marketing thong underwear that says "Eye Candy" on it to 8-10 year olds. Granted A&F is just "trying to pay the bills". But I won't have it. This SP thing is sort of the same way. Now, do I know every underhanded tactic that every company out there is doing? NO. But once I am aware of something, the ball is in my court.

Finally, I really hope that this SP thing gets resolved in a matter that will have minimal affect on the game, the industry, the small companies that we all love, etc. And when the dust settles, many of you can have the right to say "I told you so" but right now, I'm not afraid to risk my reputation to stand up agianst something that I see as an injustice. Now, maybe I don't know ALL the facts. Maybe I'm just over reacting. But at least I feel as though I'm not sitting on the sidelines.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by beam
marketing thong underwear that says "Eye Candy" on it to 8-10 year olds.

Mmmmm.... Thong underwear.......

[beam]

Originally posted by JEDI


Mmmmm.... Thong underwear.......

Not funny.

[bornl33t]

wow, this thread pulled some high rollers after I got flamed and gave up. Looks like everyone is having about the same luck. This is why the US is having problems with getting ppl to vote. No one cares. They rather just let things happen and complain later. I think we need a forum that restricts ppl by age. If your not at least 21 you can't post

[shartley]

Originally posted by beam
I agree that there is very little that we as consumers can do to affect the outcome of events that is surely to come. Good or bad...it will come.

With that, I don't think it takes any personal investment on my part in order to "feel" what a company like ICD is going through.

The "principals don't pay the bills" arguement won't last as far as I can throw it. If you believe that then you probably don't have a problem with under-age kids making clothes in factories oversees...or the pimps that run the underage-kidnapped girl brothels in some remote part of the world. I mean, really, those pimps have to "pay the bills". No, there is a thing called business ethics. It is an elusive concept, and one where business owners have to make tough choices. We have whole government agencies (like the EPA) whose responsibility it is to make sure that companies don't violate principles just so they can "pay the bills".

Originally posted by beam
Finally, I really hope that this SP thing gets resolved in a matter that will have minimal affect on the game, the industry, the small companies that we all love, etc. And when the dust settles, many of you can have the right to say "I told you so" but right now, I'm not afraid to risk my reputation to stand up agianst something that I see as an injustice. Now, maybe I don't know ALL the facts. Maybe I'm just over reacting. But at least I feel as though I'm not sitting on the sidelines.

Originally posted by Heat
wow, this thread pulled some high rollers after I got flamed and gave up. Looks like everyone is having about the same luck. This is why the US is having problems with getting ppl to vote. No one cares. They rather just let things happen and complain later. I think we need a forum that restricts ppl by age. If your not at least 21 you can't post