cocker or mag what yall think?

[Arcturus62]

Cocker vs. AutoMag

Let me dispel some myths:

1. Anyone who tells you that two different guns shooting the same FPS will shoot a ball the same distance is wrong. FPS is a measurement of velocity at some given instance. What is not taken into consideration is the rate of deceleration when the ball is coming out of the barrel. All balls are decelerating by the time they exit your barrel. Depending on the type of gun, the ball, the barrel (length and shape), and the type of impact mechanism, the rate of deceleration can differ. The people who posts the argument "it's simple physics, same speed=same distance" are not very astute. Two balls can both leave the barrel at 300FPS, but if one ball is decelerating faster, it will travel less. Deceleration has many factorsI was a professor of physics at UC Berkeley for nearly 8 years, and I will state as a matter of fact that velocity (although a factor) is not the primary function for determining the distance a ball will travel.

So how do you tell which gun shoots farther? Empirical evidence. As many will tell you, you have to shoot both to see which one you like. Shoot the AutoMag and then Shoot the Cocker. I personally believe that the cocker shoots farther, but I currently play with the Mag because it's more reliable and consistent. I will sacrifice a feet or two of distnace, if my gun can shoot the object I'm aiming at, and shoots when I tell it to shoot (aka: less ball crunching).


2. Automags are NOT harder to maintain. The level of compentency is a factor. Some people who are intellectually lower on the evolutionary ladder will tell you that Mags are hard to maintain. But once again, use empirical evidence. I believe that if you try cleaning the AutoMag once, then you will see that it is just as easy to clear and clean. Once you do it a couple of times, then it will be as easy as any other gun. It might take a few more steps than a Spyder or a step more than the Cocker, but in no way should that discourage you from getting the Mag. The maintenance is not only trivial, but also enjoyable.

When it comes down to it, people are going to upgrade their guns until the cows comes home, so you will always see someone on the field that looks like he can shoot farther, faster, or get better accuracy. Try out a few guns, buy the one that feels good to you, and then be proud of your purchase. Don't fall to "gun-envy". When it comes down to it, it's the man behind the gun that makes the most difference. Field Strategy, a semi-aggessive playing style, and a good attitude will make up for any hardware differences.

[covadsucks]

Talons Rule! LOL....I own both. I love them both as they are very accurate.

[MagNumPI]

Ok ok ok... I got a problem with

1. Anyone who tells you that two different guns shooting the same FPS will shoot a ball the same distance is wrong.

Your new to paintball arn't you.

Any gun shooting the same paint at 300 fps will go the same distance in a perfect world with absolutly no interferance.

Balls travel the same distance, they may seem they don't cause say the wind picks it up or it hits a tree..


Thats the way it is man.. go take physics..

[manike]

Re: Cocker vs. AutoMag

Originally posted by Arcturus62
Let me dispel some myths

Actually that Is what I am about to do for you...

Originally posted by Arcturus62
1. Anyone who tells you that two different guns shooting the same FPS will shoot a ball the same distance is wrong

Nope, they are correct if all other factors pertaining to the launch of the projectile are the same, such as mass of the projectile, angle and resistance to motion. These are factors completely independent of the type of gun and how it was fired which after the ball has left the barrel is irrelevant as long as it hasn't produced spin on the projectile. You as a physics professor should know this...

Originally posted by Arcturus62
What is not taken into consideration is the rate of deceleration when the ball is coming out of the barrel.

Very true, because it is COMPLETELY irrelevant. All balls after leaving the barrel are decelerating. They are decelerating due to resistance forces which comes from the air the ball moves through. This is the same for all balls fired from all guns. Wether the ball was accelerating up to the point it left the gun or decellerating is irrelevant. What maters is that we measured the velocity at a point after the ball left the barrel and is then under the same deceleration as any other ball would be. The rate of deceleration after the ball leaves the barrel is not dependent on the type of gun or how it was fired by a gun (I'm ignoring spin as it's not relevant to this arguement).

Originally posted by Arcturus62
The people who posts the argument "it's simple physics, same speed=same distance" are not very astute. Two balls can both leave the barrel at 300FPS, but if one ball is decelerating faster, it will travel less. Deceleration has many factorsI was a professor of physics at UC Berkeley for nearly 8 years, and I will state as a matter of fact that velocity (although a factor) is not the primary function for determining the distance a ball will travel.

Excuse me? Would you like to tell us what are the primary functions for determining how a ball will travel? It is velocity, mass, resistance to motion and angle of elevation. There are other factors but these are by far the most important. You are right to say if one ball is decelerating faster then it will travel less but what you are overlooking is that the rate of deceleration is not linked to the type of gun firing the ball.

You say you were a Physics professor? Well I find that very, very hard to believe. I actually studied a course on ballistics and projectile motion at university and asked my professors about certain things to do with paintball guns and the myths behind them. They would laugh like crazy about what you are implying. Please do show me the maths and state what the primary factors are. I'd like to see it :) all in full detail. I'm sure I could work through it and understand it so please don't pull any punches in your analysis. Please point out the factors that are relevent to the type of gun that fired the ball and why they have an effect.

The square of the velocity is a primary factor in the amount of energy that the projectile has and thus extremely important and pertinent in how far it will travel and it's ability to overcome resistance to motion.

Originally posted by Arcturus62
So how do you tell which gun shoots farther? Empirical evidence. As many will tell you, you have to shoot both to see which one you like. Shoot the AutoMag and then Shoot the Cocker. I personally believe that the cocker shoots farther, but I currently play with the Mag because it's more reliable and consistent. I will sacrifice a feet or two of distnace, if my gun can shoot the object I'm aiming at, and shoots when I tell it to shoot (aka: less ball crunching).

I personally think you are a fake physics professor. I'd love for you to prove me wrong though and post a full workings on projectile motion and paintball firing :)

I will say that there is a difference between maximum attainable range and effective range though. This is different, Effective Range (ER) is dependent on consistency and some guns like the autococker can be better at this. It is not the same as maximum range or what you were referring to though so I will leave that for another debate.

Originally posted by Arcturus62
someone on the field that looks like he can shoot farther, faster, or get better accuracy.

You will get guns that have more accuracy and more effective range, but if we disregard spinning the paintballs you will not get guns that have a greater potential range. Potenatial Range is not Effective Range there is a big difference.

manike

[Wild_Osiris]

I figure that I need to get into this mess. This debate over which is the better gun mags or cockers has been asked a thousand times. Here is my opinion and knowledge. I hope that I am not biased.

Ihave played with cockers before, and they are not only beautiful guns but they are real tourney guns as well. There upgrade path is unmatched by any marker. Their triggers are the most adjustable of any marker out there. In the old days I have heard that cockers were easy to get out of time and not ready out of the box. Apparently today is a different story. I really enjoyed shooting a cocker, for the limited time I was able. They are exceptional guns. Even the maker of mags Tom Kaye will tell u this. He recommends you get both markers. As does Budd Orr maker of the autococker.

I believe that the debate between accuratacy and distance doesnt depend on the stock marker much. I believe it is the consistency over the chrono that gives accuratacy and a nice tight barrel to paint match that give distance and accuratacy.(low pressure has no effect on this only on breaking paint) You see it has been proven that all objects fall at the same speed.(unless wind resistance plays in it, Also it's an equation not a set speed but all objects abide by this equation) So if two objects are going at equal speed, and they fall at the same rate, which one will go farther? The answer is they are equal.(note this is also assuming all outside factors consisent which they aren't. For instance, On maker may shot on more fps, or one paintball might not be as round as the next, or one paintball isnt fitting through the barrel as well, or the barrel's finish isnt as nice as the next one)(paintball weight might also effect it, because a bmw to a mustang both hit the wall at the same speed but since one is heavier it hits with more energy).o yes there is some inconsisenecy in this but in general mags can shot just as well or as far and accurate as cockers.

I am a mag owner by heart and it will always be with me, but I will soon be a cocker owner too. I love there triggers and they are beautiful guns.

By now ur probably asking well what does the mag have. Well the mag does have price, incredible service and support. I Also think it's not fair to put a standard mag against a SFL cocker or even a STO. They're not in the same price range. NOw if you put an Rt in there, it's a bit different. The Rt has superior fire power (bps) and a much faster cycling rate. You may not need this though since you cant out shot most guns. I think you may be able to shoot faster with a Rt mag. The reactive trigger is a wonder, just be careful u most have a good hopper and like any other mechanical gun fully push and release the trigger. An Rt is hard to short-stroke with the right trigger frame just like a cocker.

In conclusion, you will be happy with both guns, They are both exceptional. Your making a good choice no matter what.

[manike]

Re: The only reason there is a cocker/mag debate is because of the prefix "auto"

Originally posted by MagMan5446
You gotta listen to a lil' bit of public enemy.

Don't believe the hype!!

Hey that's my Tag line. Didn't know it came from Public Enemy. I've been using since I first started looking a little more seriously into paintball (about 9 years ago!, I've been playing for over ten :)

Ever since I've been on the net I've signed my posts off with 'Don't Believe the hype!'

manike

[Bartleby]

i must say that nothin you have written, Arcturus62, has any relation to a cocker or a mag, specifically. Sure, there are many factors that determine the distance a ball will travel under various conditions, however, you failed to defend your notion on a cocker shooting farther than a mag. Why do you believe this to be so? So you can explain the laws of physics but you cannot relate it even slightly to the topic at hand. I'm curious to know how it is you can possibly believe the things you do.

[manike]

Just for those of you that are interested, the paintball trajectory calculator can be found at

http://home.surewest.net/hoelkers/dyrgcmn/trajectory.html

Please note that there is no place to state how many elves you have in your set up or what type of gun you are using as it is not relevant to the calculation.

Try it out!

manike

[Arcturus62]

calculation of distance

I will post a reply to Manike and all other who question the factors of calculating distance.

The formula (feel free to look it up in your physics book):
distance = intial speed * time + ( 1/2 ) * acceleration * time^2

given: no other extraneous factors (ie: angle of the gun is the same, and no wind).

Distance calculators assume constant acceleration (ie: gravity). But since this is a "projectile" launched with a certain amount of variable force (F=ma), acceleration would not be constant. The balls flying through the air are decellerating faster or slower due to intial resistance (friction, resistance, etc.) from the gun. Each gun, and each shot, will produce a variable amount of force, and since the mass of the paintball is fairly equal, the acceleration of the ball is the major variable.

I will keep this answer short and sweet. Speed is a factor in determining distance, but not the SOLE factor. And this is gun independent. If you're firing 2 automags at the same FPS, it also may shoot different distances, however, this is more unlikely since most of the factors that would affect acceleration would most likely be equal. But nevertheless, the formula applies.

If you're going to reply to this post, please do not attack my personal background. I am a physics professor whether you believe me or not. I will try to enlighten those who have not studied physics, but if anyone is soo "gun-ho" about believing that speed is the ONLY factor in determining distance, then please don't bother to reply since no formula (no matter how basic) would convince you otherwise. Let people read and judge for themselves.

[hitech]

Re: Cocker vs. AutoMag

Originally posted by Arcturus62
Two balls can both leave the barrel at 300FPS, but if one ball is decelerating faster, it will travel less...

Can you show us a graph or the formula(s) that show that? If the objects have the same mass and the same velocity then do they not also have the same momentum? If at the same point in time they have the same momentum and the same trajectory (assuming neither is spinning/tumbling) and are traveling through the same medium, why wouldn't they follow the same path?

How does "deceleration" effect momentum? Or does it effect something else that causes the paintball to follow a different path?

[Army]

Oh brother! Now we have identical objects, with identical weights, with identical accelerations, going at identical speeds, against identical air resistance, slowing at different rates due to being launched from different guns! Now that's funny!

Sir, if one object has reached 300fps at it's peak of acceleration, and another has decelerated to 300fps, both measured at an identical point (which for this argumnet is OUTSIDE the gun, thus OUTSIDE any further influential variables), both objects, balls, are now subject to the same air resistance and gravitational pull. This can only mean that both balls are NOW decelerating, from the SAME MEASURE POINT, from 300fps.

Nothing else is a factor after the balls have left the barrel. There is no longer ANY influence from the firing pressures, or barrel friction, as both balls are now OUTSIDE the gun.

I'm no Physics prof., I'm just a guy who has observed ballistics for the last 13 years. I deal with firearms, artillery, and explosives and I do feel quite qualified to point out that you are wrong. No matter what the flying object is, it is still subject to reality, not theoretical physics.

[hitech]

http://home.surewest.net/hoelkers/d...trajectory.html

Kinda hard to argue with, isn't it? Very enlightening. Thanks for that link.

[Miscue]

Yep. The ball can no longer accelerate once their is no force behind it. Once it leaves the barrel... there is nothing propeling it, universal situation for all guns/equipment. Once it hits 300 fps, and the only thing acting against it is air friction (which treats everything equally)... it makes no difference how it got to 300 fps... the ball was previously accelerating, decelerating, at constant velocity, shot with a rail gun... makes no difference.

[RaV3n_Pa1ntba||]

Here you guys wanna do a test. Go ahead and waist your money on it if you dont believe all guns have same accuracy (range) if you do this...

Items needed:

Autococker (stock)
Mag (stock)

Freak kit on bolth.

Remove reg on cocker and run it with an asa adapter same setup with mag.

Get a gun mount like Tom has so you know there set up at perfect angles.

Make sure you match freak with paint perfectly.

Throw on a maxflow system for them bolth which is perfect cause it really concistent...and set the output 800 for both.

Chrono it in at 280 fps.

And all the paint loaded in the loader must be checked so you know none of them are eather defected...odd shaped..or cracked.

Now i guarantee you that there will be NO NOTICABLE DIFFERENCE IN THERE RANGE PERIOD CAUSE THIS SOMES UP TO PERFECT CALCULATIONS.

Now you can do that little prodject up there....or you can just trust laws of physics. Cause there "almost" impossible to break.

But make sure there are no elves around (autococker) and no gnomes around (automag)

[DarkRipper]

The Mag fanboy goggles, they do NOTHING!!!



C'mon guys... you are harshing the cocker as bad as the guys that harshed the mags.

So, who's right?

I've shot em all... mags, emags, RTs, mags with hyperframes and retrovalves, cockers of all flavors, angels, BM2ks, Imps, shockers (new and old), matrices, pumps, stock class markers, etc.

:)

What do I shoot now, after 9 years of playing paintball and after owning a ton of high end markers?

A cocker.

:)
Simple, really. I don't feel the gun offers better range or accuracy as it is... but I am a better shot with one. How is that? I dunno, and I'm sure there are physics whizzes that can explain to me exactly how I should be able to play just as well with an emag... but I don't.

It's a fact, for me anyway... I am a better player with a cocker. I don't care about the back block.. I find it annoying. I find the maintenance if your cocker goes down to be extremely annoying.. the angel and the mag have them over the barrel on that.

But I don't play as well with an angel or a mag.

Go figure.

:)
DR