Very important anti-hype thread at PBN - Doc leading the charge!

[Muzikman]

Also, just to clear it up.

Yes Doc did say;

"...develops real technology based on that analysis? (The RT valve, the mechanical ULE trigger assembly, the un-choppable Level 10 bolt, etcetera.)"

Now, HE was the one that called the Lvl 10 "Un-choppable", AGD does not. (Quoted from the front page of automags.org)

"AGD unveils a new upgrade that virtually eliminates chopping with any of their markers!"

[shartley]

Originally posted by cledford
Paintball first, then the world

Honestly, when I busted Jim Drew on the Timmy issue, a lot of people said "Jim's stuff works, why bother him?"

When I publicly ripped into AKA for the Jeckle/Hyde issue of producing a great marker then marketing it on closed bolt BS I was told "gee, leave AKA alone, the product is great and they always send me free orings in the mail."

When I busted one SP in the SFT thread I was told "who cares? So what they're marketing." Forget the fact that SFT was cooked up to cover their previous lie about closed bolt being more accurate. I mean how much wasted cash is that one fallacy alone responsible for?

It's not until the MAJORITY of the paintball consumers stop accepting being lied to openly (at worst) or being "marketed" something that was never even tested (at best) that these people (no matter how nice or customer friendly) will stop.

I never understand these threads. If someone bought a mustang and it only produced 50% of the horsepower it claimed - they'd be pissed at Ford. I can't figure out why in paintball it is OK for manufacturers to mislead as long as they provide "great customer service" otherwise.

-Calvin

[shartley]

Originally posted by Muzikman
Also, just to clear it up.

Yes Doc did say;

"...develops real technology based on that analysis? (The RT valve, the mechanical ULE trigger assembly, the un-choppable Level 10 bolt, etcetera.)"

Now, HE was the one that called the Lvl 10 "Un-choppable", AGD does not. (Quoted from the front page of automags.org)

"AGD unveils a new upgrade that virtually eliminates chopping with any of their markers!"

Added:

[cledford]

Originally posted by shartley

Sam,

I'd say that if everyone adopted a mostly true (75% or more) or has potential to be (in limited - even lab conditions) be 100% true than things would be fine. Anything that provides less then 25% of the claimed value - or that hasn't been tested/proven is just plain wrong. I understand you point about shades of gray and all of that - but come on. We're adults here and know what is over the line and what isn't. IMHO the companies don't and to date there has been no real effort/expectation for more from them. I feel it's way past time that we (the consumers) expect more. They will respond, but not without pressure.

BTW, I'm not arguing against "marketing" per se, just against "marketing" that pushes the line beyond a reasonable point. That point may move around some, but the bell curve shows us that that somewhere in the middle is consensus. That should be the line. From what I've seen most paintball claims fall well short of this standard of expectation of truth.

-Calvin

[cledford]

Originally posted by shartley


Added:

Good counter point. I don't this rises anywhere to the level of the sales hype - but is still dangerous as well.

-Calvin

[Muzikman]

Sam, good point, but if some one would come back to AGD and said "But...but...Doc said that it will NEVER chop", AGD can point to there "Advertising" and say..."Virtually" It's amazing how the addition or removal of one word changes thing so much.

[Steelrat]

Since all this crap is about "marketing hype" try going to the freeflow website www.4freeflow.com and actually try to find the service that is being attacked. Good luck trying to find it.

Again, someone posted a question on that forum, and Ethan answered it. Merely answering a question does not make it "marketing hype." WDP plastering their new A4 ad everywhere, and putting the bit about it being the fastest firing marker made, THATS marketing hype.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by Steeratt
WDP plastering their new A4 ad everywhere, and putting the bit about it being the fastest firing marker made, THATS marketing hype.

We'll get to them next

[shartley]

Originally posted by cledford
Sam,

I'd say that if everyone adopted a mostly true (75% or more) or has potential to be (in limited - even lab conditions) be 100% true than things would be fine. Anything that provides less then 25% of the claimed value - or that hasn't been tested/proven is just plain wrong. I understand you point about shades of gray and all of that - but come on. We're adults here and know what is over the line and what isn't. IMHO the companies don't and to date there has been no real effort/expectation for more from them. I feel it's way past time that we (the consumers) expect more. They will respond, but not without pressure.

BTW, I'm not arguing against "marketing" per se, just against "marketing" that pushes the line beyond a reasonable point. That point may move around some, but the bell curve shows us that that somewhere in the middle is consensus. That should be the line. From what I've seen most paintball claims fall well short of this standard of expectation of truth.

-Calvin

Originally posted by cledford
Good counter point. I don't this rises anywhere to the level of the sales hype - but is still dangerous as well.

-Calvin

Originally posted by Muzikman
Sam, good point, but if some one would come back to AGD and said "But...but...Doc said that it will NEVER chop", AGD can point to there "Advertising" and say..."Virtually" It's amazing how the addition or removal of one word changes thing so much.

[cledford]

Since he own the company and is responding publicly about a service he provides I disagree. He could have PM'ed the guy back. Furthermore, when I called them and inquired about have a threaded feedtube put on my WGP body - he said that the service was required and explained all of the crap espoused about it. Anytime the "virtues" of a product are extolled by the business owner that is "marketing" in my book.-Calvin

[Ityl]

I think the anti hype has been taken a little too far because to me it seemed like this wasn't at all about hyping a service. No wonder people still don't like mags.

[UThomas]

On that thread Doc seemed to be grandstanding in a very condescending way. If he had a point, to me it got lost in that. Maybe Ethan should start lecturing him on how to deliver customer projects on time. Of course that would lack tact, just like some of Docs responses IMO.

[Doc Nickel]

Yikes, I see things are rapidly getting out of hand. Okay, some rather important points:

A) I have nothing at all- nothing- against either Ethan or FreeFlow/Professional Paintball. I've worked on several of his/their products, and they've struck me as uniformly good kit. Their milling is cool, the anno is nice. I had one for a brief while, and another local had a sweet purple one for quite a while 'til he switched over to an X-Mag.

Just because I disagree with one little aspect of one mod, does NOT mean I "hate" the company or that I'm trying to "bad mouth" them.

B) Neither am I trying to "slander" or badmouth the company in particular. I have not repeated this discussion anywhere else, I have not posted in other boards "look how Ethan is trying to scam..." etc, etc.

I had a chance to discuss the issue with the very person involved, so I posted. Had Ethan himself not been in that thread, I probably would have paid very little attention. (For that matter, it was largely luck I even read that thread, I only check PBNation occasionally.)

C) For that same reason, I didn't "single out" Ethan to be "attacked". He was already in the conversation, talking about the mod in question, so I posted, genuinely interested in a reply.

I have similarly discussed LP nonsense with the guys from AKA, I've added my (rare) two cents to some of Tom's "Deep Blue" discussions, and if I ever caught a Gardner in a chatroom, I'd damn sure ask what the hell is up with that "seal forward" crap.

D) I distinctly recall Tom himself saying that the original SuperBolt had a finite lifetime- it WILL wear out. And then a bunch of people saying, in effect, "hey, if it helps reduce ball breakage, I'll buy it anyway!"

I don't think AGD, at any time, insinuated that the original SuperBolt was anything but a temporary measure to help players until the Level 10 kit was finished and tested.

Also note Tom allowed SB1 users to trade it in on the LX.

E) Okay, I admit "un-choppable" leads to the assumption I'm saying it can't chop, which isn't always true.

The argument, however, misses the point in the conversation from which it was lifted. That point being somthing like the L-10 has some serious R&D behind it, and some rather groundbreaking technology. THAT is what I'd like to see more companies doing, rather than simply milling another fancy threaded cup, calling it a "Low Pressure Cell" and telling you it'll make your gun shoot further, more accurately and help you with your taxes.

Someone asked a question, Ethan answered it, then Doc jumped on him.

-I apologize if it seems like I "jumped" on him. My first post in that thread might have seemed a bit snarky, but I was, in fact, wondering about those points. How much metal is removed? How badly is the bore off-axis in the average body? I was- and still am- genuinely curious.

When it became clear later that he didn't know those details, I began to wonder why he was offering a service to correct certain flaws, when he didn't know by how much the parts were flawed, if indeed they were.

And that struck me as more hype than service. "Yeah, we don't know if it's out of round, or if it is, by how much, but hey, we'll charge you $80 to straighten it out anyway."

In other words, would you pay a body shop $200 to "fix" a panel on your car that doesn't have any dents or flaws in the paint?

Now, I've managed to locate a couple of bodies, and I will be taking Ethan up on his offer, in the manner I mentioned in the PBN postings. I'm using some of the hardware at the local community college, and I should be able to quantify any error: The bore being eccentric from the breech, taper to the bore (either direction) the bore being out of parallel to the barrel/breech (both up/down and to the side) and so on, in some cases down to 0.0005", or half a thousandth of an inch.

I'm also looking for a service that can measure the Ra (roughness average) or surface finish.

What ever dude. Quit paintball, and go save the world why dont ya.

-A better use for the "rolleyes" smiley is for those that sit back and don't bother. "It's too much trouble" perhaps, or "I'll never make a difference".

Damn right you'll never make a difference with that attitude.

Just sit back son, don't bother getting up. Someone will be along to take care of that problem for you...

WDP plastering their new A4 ad everywhere, and putting the bit about it being the fastest firing marker made, THATS marketing hype.

-And as soon as I happen across John Rice in a chat or forum, I'll definitely be asking.

Maybe Ethan should start lecturing him on how to deliver customer projects on time. Of course that would lack tact, just like some of Docs responses IMO.

-An excellent point. I can only wish I could have service as fast as theirs. I have no retort to that, other than a vague reminder I'm a one-man shop without even a secretary to take calls, and ProPB is a full-fledged business with storefronts, multiple employees and several contracted machine shops and suppliers.

Is that an excuse for me? Nope. Does it have anything to do with the "tru-bore" argument? Nope. Is it relevant to this argument? Nope.

Now, in my own defense, I have to say this- it seems a common belief that my being late on a small handful of projects means I'm late on everything. (Currently I have only twelve projects over a year old, and at least three of those are due to customer situations- one, for example, moved to Singapore.)

And that my being late is simply laziness or apathy- I can't be bothered to take a few hours out of my day lounging on the beach drinking muai-thais to work on the gun, or something like that.

When in fact I regularly put in a 12-hour day in the shop, seven days a week. Last year I worked six or seven hours on Thanksgiving Day, and a full eight on Christmas in an effort to keep up with customer demand.

Yes, I've had Manikes' PGPs for entirely too damned long. But the other two hundred and fifteen customers I've dealt with so far this year have had remarkably few complaints.

Again, not that this has anything to do with the argument at hand, I just feel strangely compelled to try and set the record straight.

Doc.

[nt2004]

omg!!! legitimate, mature, and well educated posts on PBN?!?!?!?!?! Wow everytime i go there i tend to wonder if the world is getting dumber. Every post seems to be a petty flame or childish name calling. This is the best thread ive read there. Everyone is backing their arguments with educated remarks

[AGD]

If I ever get to Alaska i HAVE to visit Doc!

AGD