Update on NPPL Trigger Bounce Rule

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

yea, but how much paint is a ref gonna use to make sure it doesnt bounce?

[WickedAirSportz]

3 shots under 300 fps are required over the chrono. When I watched the refs chrono markers they use a few balls... probably 5 or 6 at most to check. When they grabbed my marker, they shot about 30 times... something about shooting 18bps during a game gets the refs attention. :)

[Cobrachs]

Ok at 18 bps how can you really tell if it isnt bouncing just a bit. Say hypothetically you can truly pull 15 balls but it has just enough bounce to go to 18. How would you really know. I have shot just about every type of marker available. I own a X-mag, a 2K2 Timmy with newly purchased Equalizer board, an E-Orracle, and a IR3 thats for sale. Funny the one thats for sale is the one that isnt being discussed in the bounce debate. Mr Drew I disagree with your ideas of bounce. A marker should be disqualified if it goes into a runaway mode. I believe guys that claim these real high bps figures have a little bit o bounce, not necessarily intentional but it is probabley there and very dificult to detect. Just my opinion

[WickedAirSportz]

Ok at 18 bps how can you really tell if it isnt bouncing just a bit.

Because I can pull this fast with just about any marker, and without any air.

[Cobrachs]

A little defenive there, my thoughts we not aimed at you, it was HYPOTHETICALL. But I am curios if its cycling that fast how does one really know that there isnt a small amount of bounce. I am not trying to attack you, in fact sometimes I think that some people may be a little tough on you,but I just dont believe a bouncing trigger and reactive trigger are one in the same, which when I read your posts I get the impression you do. We have differences of opinion. The 18 bps was just the number you used, and I borrowed

[WickedAirSportz]

I certainly don't think reactive and bouncing are the same.. in fact, they are two seperate issues completely. Reactive has to do with the trigger being pushed back, which makes the release no longer "manual" as stated in the rule. Trigger bounce is either electrical or mechanical (recoil), either of which are illegal.

In my case, I know how much bounce is actually occurring because I use about 1/4" of throw. Its easy setup an optical sensor and count along with the mechanical switch to determine if there was legitimate pulls or bounces.

[Cobrachs]

I realize that they are still working out some of the rules but was there any written adjustment to the 2003 NPPL rules avilable on the NPPl website. When I read the rules that i have there is no true definition of manual as you put it but only pull and release. I am looking at rule 6.31. Things may have changed I am just looking for some official language of the new rules

[Cobrachs]

Also when you say mechanical switch do you mean by some type of shot counter attached to the switch, whether its the built in one or some type of add on that measures the times that the switch was closed and then opened. I would think you would still see the same number of balls fired as you would cycles of the switch, becuase just because your finger didnt pull it doesnt mean the trigger didnt close the switch. I may not understand exactly how you meant

[WickedAirSportz]

A pull and release implies manual, since a trigger is operated by your fingers.

[Yamz]

I dont understand how a reactive trigger is not manual because its the same thing as having a spring return the trigger except you dont have the same force pushing against it all the time other than that difference it is still a manual trigger in order for a trigger to be manual by the way you describe it you would have to pull the trigger to fire and use you finger to pull the trigger forward again to reset it

[ezrunner]

manual actuation force

I think what Mr. Drew was referring to was that if you apply the actuation force to a reactive trigger then the trigger is automatically returned.

Let's say it takes 6 lbs to pull an RT trigger, but the trigger is pushed with 10 lbs back. If you only apply 6 lbs then you did not have to release the trigger manually for it to return. If you apply 8lbs of pressure you get a high rate of fire.

-rob

(BTW these #'s were picked out of convience to illustrate a point, I did not measure the pull on my RT)

[Cobrachs]

But that is not in the current rules, it says

A trigger pull requires an exertion of
force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger during
every firing cycle.

on a Rt you must pull and release , if not that is run away mode, which should not be allowed

I really wish I could read the new interpretation of the rules because it currently does not say how the trigger gets returned to a stationary position. There is no use of the term "manual" at all. I would rather not assume or imply what it means but actually read the current rules as written, I realize Mr Drew you are not the one to make final judgement or definition, so please dont feel that my disagreement with you is disrespect

[ezrunner]

release

The word that catches you is release.

That is where they could get the Retro Valve guns.

I am an AGD proponent, so I'm not bashing the guns. What I am trying to do is have an academic discussion of the issue and how others could evaluate the statements in such a way as to keep the mag off the field.

I don't think the mags are the problems and I don't think the rule is currently enforced directly against them.

I do think that with a blanket enforcement we may need to look at who are shooting mags on the field and how they are setup.

My feeling is that the safest thing to do is setup emags so they work electro & manual only, then setup the RT/X valve to not have bounce on those guns.

-rob

[Cobrachs]

I dont believe the word release catches anything because you have to release the RT otherwise it is set up improperly and it is running in a run away mode. If you pull the trigger and maintain pressure on the trigger it will not completely reset. On a properly woking RT there is a

"release of force by the finger on the trigger during every firing cycle."

and that is exactly what the current rules available from the NPPL say

[WickedAirSportz]

The point of the trigger rule specifically stating "release of force by the finger" is to eliminate anything that pushes the trigger forward with substantially more force than the pull.

I realize that this is a very gray area, and it does need to be defined.

The rule was going after any device sticking out of the grip frame, physically pushing the trigger forward.