DO NOT ship paintball markers via OS postal Service PLEAESE MAKE THIS A STICKY

[Steelrat]

Here is the Postal Service's interpretation of "firearm."

A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring,
or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.

So, a paintball gun could fit in there, as it uses air/gas pressure, which is actually how a normal firearm works. The issue is whether or not a paintball gun could be considered a "weapon," which requires more definitions. As I stated before, this could include all sort of stupid stuff, like automatic pitching machines and nerf rocket launchers. But its up to the ATF to decide what consitutes a firearm, not Joe Postmaster or the daily duty Inspector.

[hAppy]

Originally posted by cphilip


No I do not have ANY problem telling people they are Markers and not guns. And it's like cursing. If you get in a habit you will do it at the most inappropriate times. Try to not make it a habit and it's not going to happen.

But I have no difficulty at all explaining to them or anyone why they are NOT guns. It's fairly simple. They are not firearms by legal definition and by legal precident. they do not discharge a projectile fast enough and in the right way to be firearms. By law and definition. they will not kill. And the ATF recognises they are not firearms. They do not regulate them. Plain and simple. So do not call them something that they are not. Easy

yeah thats true, i know what you mean

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

By what that postmaster said, he wouldn't allow a plastic toy gun, or even an oddly shaped blowdryer

[the_next_guy_]

"Excuse me, Sir, can I ship my glue GUN?"

[MrWallen]

MagMonkey, let us know what happened, I really want to know if you got the stuff or not (not really, just want to know if you stuck it to the postmaster).

Sounds like the PostMaster is some guy filled with Patriotic mumbo jumbo (don't get me wrong, I love the US) who thinks he's doing the country a favor by preventing this 'terrorist' threat.

[Scircal]

So, a paintball gun could fit in there, as it uses air/gas pressure, which is actually how a normal firearm works.

I think, both the phrases "may readily be converted" and "sufficient force to be used as a weapon" sort of work against the interpretation that a paintball gun is a firearm, by the legal definition. Since you need a compressed air tank or CO2 tank attached to the marker as well as the projectile, that makes it a little tougher to make ready to fire. Also, since you can easily adjust most markers' (maybe not a VM-68 ) ability to expel gas so far down as to be useless even on the paintball field, and thusly could not be used in such as way as a weapon by any stretch of the imagination, it skirts by that criterion.

The law doesn't say it's a firearm if it "looks like a gun." And if this postal inspector did put you on some sort of terrorist watch list, I hope you have his name, have a good lawyer, contact your local news media and tell them the story and contact your federal representatives office and inform them that the local post office is illegally interferring with interstate commerce. Maybe this particular postal inspector hasn't been meeting his bad guy catch quota and so dumped on you. That's a federal bueracracy for you.

And here I go on a tangent... However, just because it is not by legal definition a firearm, doesn't mean a paintball gun is not a gun. According to The American Heritage Dictionary, a gun is:

4. A device resembling a firearm or cannon, as in its ability to project something, such as grease, under pressure or at great speed.

I think 280 fps (or 190 mph) certainly rates "great speed," and my AutoMag certainly resembles a gun in some sense (i.e. has a trigger, a .45 grip frame, a barrel, etc.). Though it certainly isn't any more dangerous than, say, a hot glue gun. In some sense, I can understand why the industry and players of the sport started using the term "marker" rather than "gun" because of the connotations, but to deny that the (whatever you want to call the devices used to shoot paintballs) are at some level guns just buys into the hysteria that guns are intrinsically bad. They aren't, of course. And just because folks call their markers paintball guns doesn't mean they're calling them .357 magnums, the same as calling a hot glue gun by its proper name doesn't impute it with the ability to take life or otherwise make it a conventional weapon.

Argh! okay, I'm finished ranting.

[MrWallen]

^ Good point. It's when people refer to their markers as guns AND their paintballs as bullets AND refer to tags as kills AND insist that getting hit is extremely painful that the problem arises. By calling it a marker you aren't necessarily denying the fact that it is a gun, but trying to degeneralize an item whose aspects and accessories have many negative stereotypes or generalizations about them.

Tried to make that clear.

And funny that you mention glue gun, because I'd be willing to be those things have way more reported injuries (and more serious ones too) than paintball. Those things really ARE dangerous.

[logamus]

[hijack]

Originally posted by abaez
I'd never ship UPS unless I really had to. My cousin worked there and he said they could care less about how the boxes are treated. I'd ship airborne above all but if not fedex then usps.

if you think that airborne, fedex, or the usps cares more about your package than ups, then good luck with all that. now i work for ups so it a bit of a homer call on my part but i only use ups for important/expensive items. insurance is cheaper with ups than usps, tracking is much more in-depth, and i like to know that some of the highest paid people in the industry are handling it. now what your cousin said is for the most part true, nobody really cares about one box more than another, but i promise you none of the major carriers are better or worse than the other. if your cousin worked for fedex your post would start "I'd never ship FedEx...".

i apoligize for the thread hijacking but i just wanted to point out that when it comes to caring for your package nobody cares more than anyone else.
[/hijack]

[virus]

hmm... well it looks like i need to go around my house and collect a few things put them in a duffle bag, go down to said post office ask for the post master to help me and tell him i need his help pickin out the correct size boxes to ship different types of "guns" to other people.....

so lets see (and yup most of these ideas were from you all...)
cocking gun
hot air gun (great for stippin paint)
glue gun
3 or 4 rubber band guns(rifle and pistols)
a toy cap gun
a toy disk shooting gun
i think i have a splatt marker around (ok who is old enough to have one yet alone remember them, ya know they used those round clips the fit into the back and held only 6 shots i think)
spray gun
an empty cig lighter the looks like a gun
a large variaty of water guns from the cheap plastic to a supersoaker
oh what the heck cardboard gun shillouttes
nail gun

hmm... i wonder if i have items marker "gun holsters" if they'll p&m to that also.....

then look at him afterwards and then referance a paintball marker and see what they say.....

so alan when do you want to put this together and go mess with their heads.... of course we wont want to mess with them to much.... they might go postal

[paint magnet]

I will continue to ship my markers via UPS. They provide $100 automatic insurance, deliver on time, include a free online tracking number and are the cheapest I've found. As for damaging the package, I put so much packing around the stuff I ship that if you put it in a catapult (*sp) and flung it to where it was going it should still arrived undamaged.

Last time they asked what was in the box, it went something like this:

Girl @ UPS counter: "Sir, can you please describe the contents of the box for me?"
Me: "It's an Emag. A paintball gun."
Girl: "Oh, duh, I guess I should have read the box. Have a nice day!"
(It was packaged in a Zap paintball box. I had to restrain myself from laughing at the fact she thought Zap made Emags )

[Nomad]

Maybe the post office master wanted to keep the marker for himself.......... (jk)

[Steelrat]

The problem is that normal firearms work on the principle of gas propelling a projectile, so unfortunately, paintball guns sort of fit that definition, though anyone with any sort of common sense knows better.

[cphilip]

No thats not the definiton at all. I have no idea where you got that and its heavily edited and its erroneous. Go look at the ATF definition. FEDERAL law governs Firearms as far as interstate transport goes and the definiton goes. And the Federal Post office has no ability to redefine that and I point out to you that NO ONE but the ATF and resulting case law from ATF actions can redefine what a "Firearm" is. If they do then it's not legally binding on anyone. Since the ATF is the only one that can issue a FFA then three is no regulation of Paintball markers interstate transport. And thats by LAW....Period! The USPS has no jurisdiction or legal power to regulate Firearms IN ANY WAY nor include them in exceptions without law to back it up. And no matter what they say its been established by case law that Paintball Markers are NOT firearms. The only other issue is Hazardous Materials which DOT has jurisdiction over and the UPSP must abide by. Note: not redefine! And Paintball Markers ARE NOT hazardous materials according to DOT. Pressurized tanks "could" be. So the USPS abides by DOT on that. They do not superceed nor redefine those things. They cannot by law. No matter what they may publish. They would be subject to tort and liability if they did. No one in the Federal Government could back them up on that one. Now seeing as how the climate of the world is changed since 911 there are many Government agencies making mistakes in jurisdiction. And those will all play out in court. Now that being said a private transportation company may have recourses to deny shippment of items that it deams unsutable. But they are then liable to tort if they do so unreasonably. And in this case they would be doing so as the ATF says they are not Firearms and the DOT says they are not hazardous. So then the two agencies that can decide have cleared them. So not allowing them to ship is interferance with interstate commerce. And thats against Federal law!

[Steelrat]

The US Postal Service has every right to determine the mailability of certain items, and to create definitions of what those items are. Remember that DOT sets a minimum standard for safety, which the USPS can add upon if they so choose. Once again, I will quote USPS Pub 52, which deals with hazardous and restricted items. And Cphil, this is a DIRECT quote:

[QUOTE]A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring,
or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.[QUOTE]

They can refuse to ship whatever they want, as long as it is within their own rules. The reason that the postal rule mentions "gas pressure" is probably because that is how firearms work. Most people thing an explosion drives the projectile. That is wrong. How they work is by burning gunpowder within a cartidge, creating a gas, which in turn creates the pressure to fire the projectile in the cartridge. Hence, the ban against projectiles driven by gas pressure.

Now, I agree that the Postmaster's and Inspector's interpretation of the rules are flawed, and I fully believe that taking it to a higher level will rectify the problem.

[TheTramp]

I think what it comes down to in the end is that the Post Office official in question grossly exceded his real job to try and keep the US mail from being used for terrorist activities.

I ship my paintball stuff (AO classified forum sales ect.) from the main USPS building in the state. It is a federal building in downtown Boston (Post Office Square) so every package needs to go through an X-ray machine and each person has to go through a metal detector to even get into the building.

Now, I do not tape my boxes shut because I know that when the guards see the "gun" shape they'll want to look inside. Far from telling me I can't ship my marker or putting me on a terrorist list, the guards have thanked me for thinking ahead and not taping the box shut. They almost always want to have a quick chat about their paintball experiances and ask where I go to play.