An interesting thought of.... ummmm, well just read

[bryceeden]

Beemer read my whole post not just the part that makes me look like a bad guy. On another note mask technology is getting better, the shereical shape of V-force lenses makes impact actually strenthen them. Bottom line is that statisticaly right now WITH 20+bps going paintball has half the injuries of bowling. I like the added adrenaline rush of fast marker, and I avidly play speedball, tourneys, woodsball, scenarios, and everything in between. I think the people who don't like the speed are the loud minority in this case, and even some of you like to shoot fast. I just don't really see what the problem is, the safty stuff is bull so it must be over shooting, and I don't see much overshooting in rec ball(at least around here)because most people cann't aford the paint unless they have a good sponsorship. I hate to say this and sound like PBnation, but if you are so afraid of overshooting don't play high level tournements.

[automag223]

Originally posted by fallout11
(such as rate of fire caps, ammo limitations, or restricted "classes") or a accidentally or naturally occuring one remains to be seen.

i think this is a good idea...i think that people won't be fireing at 20bps if you don't let them carry a case of paint onto the feild...make a limit that one person can carry up to say 600 extra rounds onto the feild...if that person wants to go out there and still fire at 20 bps then let them and they will run out of paint in a matter of minutes...

i also like the idea of different classes...

[Miltonyz]

I disagree with the danger mark. I beleive you guys are going pretty far out to find possible scenarios to prove it's danegrous. As I pointed out above through examples you can use this reasoning to outlaw anything you do not approve of.

People keep talking about how gun technology is improving so far. In my mind safety technology has improved. The fact is if you feel the need for it you can purchase goggles with safety straps and helmets, neck guards that more then adequetly protect the throat, and other safety pieces.

The only thing that really irks me is the fact that we should limit everybodies gun's because YOU don't feel safe. If you have such a problem with it play with people who shoot slower, find a league that agrees with your principals, but trying make rules that effect everybody for your own gain is greedy.

[Brophog]

bryceeden,

Since your one pulling for BPS and providing the reason that you enjoy the rush, then answer my question.

How much is too much. Or is there?

[JuggaloDave]

It will get to the point with the padding that ppl will have to take it off for the turnys. it would be too hot and could could cause heat stroke. then others would take note how much easyer it is to play without padding maybe and would forget about it.

The bps, i think it will be a thing where it will slowly weed itself out of major style, and no one marker will be able to really fire faster than the others. the old 17-20bps stuff will eventually be old and unwanted by the big timers, and it will become cheap enough for kingman to massmarket a 100-200$ marker that is caple of keeping up with "the big boys." Places would have to start a price war there after; there will a point like in computers now, there fast, almost to fast some of them, now all they need to do is become cheaper and more realiable. And with the cheaper more relieable guns, the industry would prosper from ppl being able to afford better equipment, could play more, get more friends to play cause of the lower costs, and i would think more tournys would pop up, as well as feilds. The sport would slowly become much more acceptable to ppl cause there will be kids with parents who understand that it is safe, and a good thing for there sons/daughters to be into cause not only does it encourage team work, team building and comunication skills, but also reading, cause they kids will love reading the pball mags and if the kids reading anything at all, it would a big improvment over nothing.

yeah i know, i am a dreamer, but soooooooo whut lol.

J.D.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by Brophog
bryceeden,

Since your one pulling for BPS and providing the reason that you enjoy the rush, then answer my question.

How much is too much. Or is there?

I don't think markers can get much faster than they are. We are currently reaching a peak where the markers mecanically and electronically cann't go much faster without flat out full auto or bursts, I think trigger bounce has found its peak. But to answer your question I have been on the receiving end of 80BPS from a scenario game marker that was several E-spyders sodered into a single frame, and it was cool, so I personnally don't think there is too much, but for the sport side I think it will and should stay about where it is now.

[Brophog]

Thanks for the reply.

So would you be against an imposed cap of 14 bps. The game would be unchanged, yet it would provide an end to several of these arguments.

I do have to disagree a bit on your statement of " if you don't like high ROF, then stay out of tourney ball". That's not an exact quote, but that is close I believe.

Your right with that quote....for now. However, we know that this will trickle down into rec ball. Especially with the influx of youth in the game now, they really look up to the pros. They read the magazines and buy the videos that are full of pros shooting high end guns. They want to be like them, and typically upgrade their gear when they can afford to do so.

This has created, in areas of the country, some conflict. Not all people like the high ROF and some have quit the sport because of it. So, in some places, its not as easy just to say, stay away from tourneys. Obviously, as we have already seen, the longer we continue to have these arms races, the more that trickle down effect continues into the rec and scenario sides.


Just a thought.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Miltonyz

Unlikely yes but probably more likely then I'm gonna catch 15 balls in the neck and die.

How quickly the world forgets.

Shatnerball 2, ok, the guy didn't die, but I'll bet he felt like he wishes he did. Took a string to the back of the head and was knocked COLD. The final battle was placed on hold for 5 minutes while they attended to the fallen.

My source was a ref, who told me someone was out cold, and the other guys who filled in the rest later.

That was a small string, and an accident. He leaned into a string being shot by a guy behind him. Now let's say it's intentional. Footage I've seen from X-ball and NPPL leads me to believe it's "common" to get shot 5+ times point blank for each player that runs past you.

Now let's introduce a guy who's just angry at how the game is going, and he'l make the guy he bunkers pay for it. point blank, he rips a 3 second string with all he's got from 2 or less feet away. A myopic ewok couldn't miss at that range. So, being kind, 3 seconds, 15 Bps, 45 balls, point blank, into a player's head/neck. Now if we 'up' that to 30, that's upwards of 90 balls, point blank.

This is one of those times I don't want to be able to say "I told you so." Because when the first person dies or is so injured they can no longer work because of a paintball game, you know the government will step in. And they won't care if they destroy the game to keep you safe while playing it.

-Tyger (If this makes no sense, wait a while.)

[Meph]

Originally posted by bryceeden


I don't think markers can get much faster than they are.

Know how many times in paintball's history this has been said?

And how suddenly it gets bumped faster only for people to then say AGAIN "It can't get any faster than it currently is."
How many times must this cycle as well repeat itself? People used to think a pump handle on their bolt action 007 was the fastest they'd ever shoot!

Now the thing is, I'm not saying limit paintball to 5bps to keep people safe. Or to ban padding all together. But rather there flat out MUST be some strict guidelines, and actually have them enforced. Remember 1 fire per trigger pull? Remember no baggy clothing? Remember semi only boards?
What ever happened to these regulations? How much must be sacrificed and ignored just for sheer profit? What's it going to take before it's too late (if not already)?

Hell I'm still waiting for a real referee organization that has an adequate amount of trained staff for the events. Even that seems to be too hard to get, let alone anything else. I know I'm not the only one who hates to hear of people being picked off the street or at-event volunteers with "NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY" as the OFFICIAL Referee staff. Think it's fair to the players?


Oh, and I'm sure that kid who got overshot 12 times in the head in PanAm and sent to the hospital think's it's unlikely too, eh? If there had been actual regulations being enforced do you think this would've happened to this degree?

Kind of ironic I feel. The same community who keeps on complaining about how woodsball is "ruining paintball's image" and keeps preaching about the 1998 safety statistics..... are the same people who push that very boundary of safety to give the media and other sources more anti-paintball fuel.


I'll put it this way. If we don't properly police ourselves like we currently have been this past 21 years. You're REALLY not going to like when an outside party FORCES us into what they feel policing the industry should be, no matter what it costs in loss of sales or loss of players to the game.

[Miltonyz]

Took a string to the back of the head and was knocked COLD.

Nope never heard of it and frankly it doesn't throw my opinion off a whole lot.
I know of that fellow that Lasoya shot and now this guy. That brings it up to two. How many instances of this has occoured? And how many instances should there be before we change the rules?

Now let's introduce a guy who's just angry at how the game is going, and he'l make the guy he bunkers pay for it. point blank, he rips a 3 second string with all he's got from 2 or less feet away. A myopic ewok couldn't miss at that range. So, being kind, 3 seconds, 15 Bps, 45 balls, point blank, into a player's head/neck. Now if we 'up' that to 30, that's upwards of 90 balls, point blank.

Now you are introducing hypotheticals that involve players malicously breaking the rules. In that instance the problem wasn't the gun it was the player. In any sport the chance of injury increases dramatically when you start breaking the rules. The trick is to make the cost for cheating greater then any possible benefit. I could suggest the banning of bats in baseball using the argument that in 3 seconds an upset batter could club and injure a pitcher.

In reality this doesn't affect me too much, I couldn't reach 14 bps on my best day and I'm willing to guess that very few people can. But I think those who can have an advantage that should not be taken away

[coolcatpete]

Originally posted by Tyger


How quickly the world forgets.

Shatnerball 2, ok, the guy didn't die, but I'll bet he felt like he wishes he did. Took a string to the back of the head and was knocked COLD. The final battle was placed on hold for 5 minutes while they attended to the fallen.

My source was a ref, who told me someone was out cold, and the other guys who filled in the rest later.

That was a small string, and an accident. He leaned into a string being shot by a guy behind him. Now let's say it's intentional. Footage I've seen from X-ball and NPPL leads me to believe it's "common" to get shot 5+ times point blank for each player that runs past you.

Now let's introduce a guy who's just angry at how the game is going, and he'l make the guy he bunkers pay for it. point blank, he rips a 3 second string with all he's got from 2 or less feet away. A myopic ewok couldn't miss at that range. So, being kind, 3 seconds, 15 Bps, 45 balls, point blank, into a player's head/neck. Now if we 'up' that to 30, that's upwards of 90 balls, point blank.

This is one of those times I don't want to be able to say "I told you so." Because when the first person dies or is so injured they can no longer work because of a paintball game, you know the government will step in. And they won't care if they destroy the game to keep you safe while playing it.

-Tyger (If this makes no sense, wait a while.)

THis happens with every sport that someone is injured and cant ever play again. for an example football. Paintball has the least injuries of any sport so once it get commercialized it will be closer to the other sports with injuries. It is more of a play at your own risk. I dont know to many ballers that get pissed at a newb and lets off a 3sec string at them so.. It comes down to the higher leagues and they chose top play that and they had to sign liability waviers for a reason and they say play at your own risk. So it is up to the players on paintballs fate
Pete

[Cyberious]

The only ones who attain the really fast ROF's in tourneys (for any length of time that is) are the back guys. (I know I'm one.) Wouldn't it be interesting though to have the following rules.

- 240-250 fps max (you'd need to get close or goggle everyone).
- No ROF limit except must be semi.
- An empty hopper at the start of the game.
- Only allow 3-4 pods.
- No one allowed to share paint.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Miltonyz

I know of that fellow that Lasoya shot and now this guy. That brings it up to two. How many instances of this has occoured? And how many instances should there be before we change the rules?

I wouldn't know. But isn't two enough? I mean, come on. I'm not 100% sure of the "LaSoya" incident either, becasue I've read at least 5 versions of "What happened". the truth is in there somewhere, but I don't have the inclination to muck it out.

Originally posted by Miltonyz

Now you are introducing hypotheticals that involve players malicously breaking the rules. In that instance the problem wasn't the gun it was the player. In any sport the chance of injury increases dramatically when you start breaking the rules. The trick is to make the cost for cheating greater then any possible benefit. I could suggest the banning of bats in baseball using the argument that in 3 seconds an upset batter could club and injure a pitcher.

And, as we all know, paintball players always obey the rules. Especially at high-profile tournaments. Nobody overshots, or teaches the other team a lesson with "Bonus Balls", or ever takes out frustration on the other team unnessarily by shooting who they deem as a cheater 5-10 times more than nessary. And nobody would ever dream of overshooting the other team to intimidate them. Oh perish the thought.

Your argument holds no merit, as there are reprecussions for batters who use a bat on a pitcher. Jail time for starters (Assault...) Not to mention league fines, suspension, and so on. Remember a few years back a hockey player was ARRESTED after using his stick to hit an opponent. All of hockey was appaled, but the policeman who watched it felt justified to file charges.

I'd like to see someone in paintball be suspended from a tournament for overshooting. It won't happen. That being said, "play at your own risk" still does not indemnify the officials or the organisers from responsibility if a preventable injury happens due to neglegance. If I'm paying to play, I'd like to know a part of my money is going to keep me safe, if even from the idiocy of other players. If I'm incapacitated because an official will not, or by the rules in place CAN NOT step in, or I am injured becasue the rules do not punish players that act in an unsafe manner and thereby discourage dangerous behavior, you better believe I'm taking all actions against ALL involved for loss.

(Blanket lawsuit. You sue the organisers, the team / player, the maker of the gun, possibly the officials for refusing to take action or taking negligent action, and if you feel up to it, the venue, paint manufacturer, and so on. That's how lawsuits like that work, and it's why lawyers are so expensive....)

The attitude of "Boys will be boys" will not float when you put paintball on TV all the time.

Originally posted by Miltonyz
In reality this doesn't affect me too much, I couldn't reach 14 bps on my best day and I'm willing to guess that very few people can. But I think those who can have an advantage that should not be taken away

I thought so too, till someone handed me an intimidator with debounce set to 1. 5 seconds of raking the trigger later, I averaged 18 BPS over 5 seconds. Az can get it over 22. I don't see a purpose to it, other than wasting paint.

-Tyger

[GT]

You unlimted BPS guys need to ask a non-pb buddy at work, over 21 please, about ROF and what they can be hit with. Now that wonderful expression they show will be the same seen in civil court from folks of all ages and colors once the first lawsuit and/or death occurs.

I can guarentee that paintball will loose. Piss and moan about how badass you think you are at 20bps becuase that time is slowly changing.....

If the industry had any brains at all they would introduce "rookie" style tourny classes with some industry limits on thier rigs. More people playing the game more money, but most industry people are just to stupid to see past the current flock of "stunna's" at the local feild/tourney.

yO! yO! yO! yO! cHeCk OuT mY nEw GaT, It'S fAt, AiGhT!


jb

[Miltonyz]

Your argument holds no merit, as there are reprecussions for batters who use a bat on a pitcher. Jail time for starters (Assault...) Not to mention league fines, suspension, and so on. Remember a few years back a hockey player was ARRESTED after using his stick to hit an opponent. All of hockey was appaled, but the policeman who watched it felt justified to file charges.

My point with the cost/benefits statement in my last post is that we should follow the standard as set above. I don't believe we should put a limit on shooting speeds, we should punish the crap out of those players who use it to "punish" others.

But isn't two enough?

Two injuries are imho not enough to add such a rule. I don't know what number to set. I do know that two people getting knocked unconsious would barely be a blip on the radar of other sports.