An interesting thought of.... ummmm, well just read

[bryceeden]

Someone go start a poll. I tell you guys what if you start a well thought out petiton to cap BPS at a reasonable number like 15-17bps I'll sign and help get signatures, but I think what you should do and would only take a little effort is get the insurance companies to ban ANY AND ALL trigger bounce, they already outlaw full auto and bursts I don't think it would take much to get rid of trigger bounce. That way every one is happy because you get lower rates of fire and uncapped markers.

[bryceeden]

Here is a link to a poll http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...11#post1259111

Please go vote.

[fallout11]

Originally posted by fallout11
I feel a poll coming on.....

Thanks, Bryceeden!

[Miltonyz]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

That is a horrible quote. Using that logic I could prove whatever little pet fancy that I care to propose.

If you want to claim something as true you have to include evidence that strengthens your position. If you can not find evidence to support your position, maybe you should rethink it, rather then hiding behind false quotes.

The burden of proof is on you.
High speeds are leading to more injuries is a opinion statement that holds no weight.
Saying that since high speeds have been attained overshooting injuries have gone up 20% according to insurance records would be a fact.

[Brophog]

Someone needs to get a hold of those facts....

We do know that every media outlet under the sun has been reporting an increase in paintball injuries.

Personally, I'd like to think it was more due to the rapid influx of players into the sport more than anything. I will say that the higher injuries are probably caused by the influx of youth in the sport. Not necessarily the kids fault, but kids make poor judgements. That's what makes them kids! You combine kids, lack of ref/supervision, and much higher ROF markers, and you have cause for alarm.

I totally agree that BPS limit is not a cure all. We need more organization in this sport and much better refs at all levels. This used to be a game played primarily by adults. Now, like it or not, we have much younger kids out there, 10-11 years old. Sorry to say, but 10 year olds act like 10 year olds. These 10 year olds have high end guns, but don't have high end judgement skills. That's a big problem that won't be solved with just slower guns or better refs, its gonna take both. Don't forget what one mad mama can do to a sport if she finds out junior was overshot!

[fallout11]

We've got members on AO admitting to playing with cracked goggles.

And players posing with barrel plug-less guns (complete with visible "I shot my own leg and foot" syndrome).

Obviously safety is not a high enough priority for many.
That hurts paintball as a whole.

[Meph]

Originally posted by Miltonyz
The burden of proof is on you.

Oh come on you know and I know that no matter how much proof is put on the table that you won't care or admit to it. There have already been numerous examples of how just ROF alone causes not only serious injury but major increased risk of injury. But apparently as more evidence keeps being added, you keep pushing it aside saying "It's not enough to convince me" well for your type it's never enough sadly.


Want proof that the media is against this game and will be more than happy to over-report any minor injury such as at Shatnerball? Look at the injury statistics and also look at the staticstics from 1998 safety, and from 2002 participation.

You watch the news, right? Back in 2001 when the 1998 stats came out. How many news channels covered that? How many at Prime time talked about how safe paintball was?

Back in 2002 when we reached 7 million, how many stations covered paintballs increased participation? Or last years' stats of 8+ million. How many news channels covered this?

Now look at today. One doctor talks about how there are more injuries yet does focus on STATISTICALLY that injury PER PARTICIPANT that injuries have decreased. Now go turn on the television what do you see?

Every single channel broadcasting PAINTBALL INJURIES ON THE RISE they never mention all the stats, only that # of injuries ALL TOGETHER (not per player) have trippled.

How many more of these biased media broadcasts can this industry take before somebody outside steps in? How many more reported injuries must be sustained? How much must be ignored and overlooked? The problem we have here is that if we do not police ourselves that WE WILL be policed. This is not a "oh it might happen, but doubtful" no this is a major problem that will happen if nothing is done about it. And the turning-a-blind-eye method is not something I'm personally in favor of.

[Miltonyz]

Oh come on you know and I know that no matter how much proof is put on the table that you won't care or admit to it. There have already been numerous examples of how just ROF alone causes not only serious injury but major increased risk of injury.

Nope. You have provided no evidence what so ever. I have seen two seperate incidences provided as proof. Two incidences is not a significant number. Rather then spending ten minutes telling me that I won't accept evidence, provide some.
If you can't provide evidence then I take it as an admission that you have none. And the above quote was a silly semantic game that tried to make me look hardheaded because I demand proof. Not some silly hypothetical situation, not two seperate instances over a year span. I demand statistically significant evidence.

One doctor talks about how there are more injuries yet does focus on STATISTICALLY that injury PER PARTICIPANT that injuries have decreased.

If this stat is true it does very little for your case at all. If per person paintball has gotten safer as more people have joined then obviously the current state of ROF is safe.

[fallout11]

So....to be the devil's advocate for a moment.

If I can provide sources that say categorically that paintball-related injuries have increased per player (percentage-wise),
Or as a "direct result of increased rates of fire" or a quote to that effect, you will accept that as categorical proof?

If so, I accept the challenge, and I'm on it.
If not, you're blind, and there's no point talking about it further.


Please keep in mind these are merely REPORTED injuries....as we all know not all paintball-related injuries are reported or documented.

In the same way that not all work-related injuries are reported for workers comp, and not all car-related accidents are reported to their owner's insurance companies.

In fact, I would hazard that the percentage of paintball-related injuries occuring but not being reported is on the rise, due to increasing pressures NOT to report them, for the reasons already discussed (fear of giving Pball a bad name, fear of lawsuits in a more lawsuit-prone society, fear of public outrage, etc.).

But I'll see what I can find.

[bunkermaster10]

Originally posted by fallout11
We've got members on AO admitting to playing with cracked goggles.

I play w/ a cracked lense does that make me a bad guy ...lol. Those suckers are strong. I am in the market for a new mask though....


If a league could come out w/ ONE hopper that fed about 17 bps and ever team HAD to use it that would be kool cause then everybody could keep there markers the same way but won't get any higher than 17bps. Think about it the NPPL REVY or whatever... They hand them out at games so you have to use them and then eventually everybody would want to buy one and eventually companies would come out w/ NPPL Hoppers or whatever. Its that simple.

[Lohman446]

I have to agree with Miltonyz here. You all have valid theories hypothetically, but more people sustain injuries from the field than from paintballs each year.

Face it - with however many million or billion paintballs shot last year there were only a handful of serious injuries (no clue on numbers) think of this as a ratio. Almost every place on a human body has been hit by a paintball, likely two or three, we have seen very little serious damage from it.

I do not support caps on marker speed (and thats a hard decision for me). One, it would mean all markers would be electronic, how are you going to reliably cap a mechanical marker? I do beleive one shot, one pull should be enforced and NO SHOT BUFFERING - this gray area is going to be what causes problems legally.

As for negligence, its a risk you take in any activity, thats why there is insurance. Fell playing paintball exposes you to it - take a personal liability policy (they are fairly cheap if you are just an individual not a business) or don't play. THere is not that much risk anyways especially if you are a player within the rules.

The risks in paintball (marker related under current speed conditions) are not that high. The cost of getting rid of those risks is not reasonable.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by fallout11
So....to be the devil's advocate for a moment.

If I can provide sources that say categorically that paintball-related injuries have increased per player (percentage-wise),
Or as a "direct result of increased rates of fire" or a quote to that effect, you will accept that as categorical proof?

If so, I accept the challenge, and I'm on it.
If not, you're blind, and there's no point talking about it further.


Please keep in mind these are merely REPORTED injuries....as we all know not all paintball-related injuries are reported or documented.

In the same way that not all work-related injuries are reported for workers comp, and not all car-related accidents are reported to their owner's insurance companies.

In fact, I would hazard that the percentage of paintball-related injuries occuring but not being reported is on the rise, due to increasing pressures NOT to report them, for the reasons already discussed (fear of giving Pball a bad name, fear of lawsuits in a more lawsuit-prone society, fear of public outrage, etc.).

But I'll see what I can find.

Here is where to find the injury data. http://www.mpaintball.com/injury.php

This isn't all the info you need, but it is a start. Boston insurance has verified the numbers.

This is an old chart, I have a new one somewhere that shows per person paintball has gotten safer since then. The thing is paintball is growing faster than any sport in history, and with the growth in number of players the growth in number of injuries rizes. How many people where at Spplatt attack? it is all most garenteed with that many people that someone will get hurt, but it was only one person. The next case Lasoya(sp?) is known to shoot well above chrono limits and cheat in every way possible, so that kind of nullifies that one.

[fallout11]

That's actually not a bad idea, bunkermaster, as it's a different approach than any I've heard previously.

And Lohman446:
Miltonyz is dead wrong.

What if I said I COULD prove categorically that injury rates per paintball player were rising?

Would you agree then?


I'll post it tomorrow. Work is over for the day now.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by fallout11
That's actually not a bad idea, bunkermaster, as it's a different approach than any I've heard previously.

And Lohman446:
Miltonyz is dead wrong.

What if I said I COULD prove categorically that injury rates per paintball player were rising?

Would you agree then?


I'll post it tomorrow. Work is over for the day now.

Yes, then I would agree, but I can prove they have gone down. If you guys want to make trigger bounce illegal, lets do it, it wouldn't be hard, but I still don't think a ROF cap(although not really even doable anymore) is the answer.

[bunkermaster10]

Seriously just think about it. It would be so easy to do. You can shot whatever marker you want but you have to use that hopper. So you can still have boucne settings but you won't be able to go over that max bps speed of the hopper.