AGD Defunct???

[Butterfingers]

But Tom there is a simple answer to that we want BOTH looks and technology

In all sereousness it the people will prefer what you hype... If you advertise technology people will buy your technology...

If you advertise looks people will buy looks.

Some companies even get away with marketing crap... and people will continue buying crap

If agressive marketing is not an option you have to work expotentally harder to develop a product that will create so much chaos and rukus and hype , that is so far ahead of the competition that it will be its own spectacle.

A new innovation just like compressed air and electronics.

The new question is... how do we go beyond the realm of electronics then we live in a mouse click society?

Perhaps the solution is not in a better gun, we have reached the pinnacle of effective firepower...

We must pose the question what is the only thing that has not changed since the game's inception...

As you walk down the "long corridors" of the AGD factory at the end you will find "motivation" and the answer is sure to make an "impression"

You must "project" your thoughts to make sure your new innovation dosent hit the "ceiling." before it reaches its final destination.

[tg ur 1t]

Tom... first off, what am I to do?
do I leave the AGD Mag market because I want an electro marker?
seriously... I own 2 pb markers, a minimag that I added a hyperframe to and an E-mag that is ULE warp fed. I like the E marker and if there will be no advancement of it through AGD, then... am I to stop looking at the market around AGD and just follow in line to SP? You would keep me at ease by saying that you are going to advance the E-mag through the X-mag and on to the next level. It is upsetting to see the list with all mech markers.

Secondly, reputations are there because it's what the populous has seen... but don't try to hide from it. I got a Mag due to ONE, your customer service was bragged about by a Mag owner to me, and TWO, I saw an E-mag with warpfeed when it was tuned to perfection and it was (performance and looks) SWEET! Do you want us to forget who forged the way on compressed air in paintball? Maybe forget about who came up with the forced feeding system for paintball? These are also part of the Mag name.

If you want to change opinions... do it the right way, on the field at the events, in the stores, and at the local level. Don't change the name to TK INC. because people won't know your history.
EX. Phillips is still a Magnavox... we know this when we buy TVs.
Maybe it's just my opinion... but it is MY $.02 worth

[Brophog]

But your not going to see an innovation that will do what compressed air and electronics have done.

Electronics are the be all end all of innovation. Look what happened in the 20th Century once electronics were invented. We saw a massive explosion. TV, Radio, Automobiles, Aircraft.


Now, take one specific task: Accelerate a paintball down a tube at 300 FPS. Once electronics and minor tweaking is done, that's all there is to it.

You will see small innovations in the coming years, but you will never see anything develop that will do to paintball what previous innovations have done. It will not happen. In the history of technology, it is unprecedented for a simple item to change radically after the introduction of the modern circuit board. A paintball marker is as simple as they come.

To compete now, you must have an electronic marker, or be satisfied with producing a high end, custom type of mechanical marker. If you can't carve your niche, you must appeal to the masses. In order to do that, you have to hype, market, and create tension that forces people to buy your product without thinking about why. You need that WOW factor.

We're past the point of technology. Technology WILL not lead to the success of future companies in this industry. Marketing, the root of all evil in business, is the only way to cut through. You must appeal to the trillions of idiots who cant read, cant spell, and cant think. Use flashy colors and lie to them a lot. That's how you'll sell merchandise.

[Butterfingers]

you must think outside the typical box of paintballs

I know of one way we can make guns more efficent. Shoot flatter and farther and feed faster. AND cheaper if it catches on.

Ke= 1/2 mv^2

If you don't exceed the safe limits you can manipulate that equation however you want.

[tg ur 1t]

don't lose morals and lie to the public... some of us aren't the minions you see following the leader around. We have morals and our own developed opinions.

[Brophog]

Ke= 1/2 mv^2

Nice try, but you only have two variables, mass and velocity.

Velocity is governed to 300 FPS. Mass of the paintball is governed by ASTM standards.

You can certainly get more force, but you'd have to redesign not only the masks, but clothing as well. If you wanted to run around in full padding and be pelted by paintballs that are unlikely to break due to that excessive padding, then that equation works fine.

[Odder]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Unfortunatly, modern day players want electros, n00bs or "pros". So, if AGD doesn't produce an electro, they'll fade away. Tippmann even offers electro versions of thier guns. The companies that don't, fade awaY.
Like ACI.

Hmmm.... I guess I better get on the phone and tell that to Mike Cassidy at CCI to revemp his products or else he will be ruined.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Brophog


Nice try, but you only have two variables, mass and velocity.

Velocity is governed to 300 FPS. Mass of the paintball is governed by ASTM standards.

You can certainly get more force, but you'd have to redesign not only the masks, but clothing as well. If you wanted to run around in full padding and be pelted by paintballs that are unlikely to break due to that excessive padding, then that equation works fine.

You sir are correct... but are still thinking inside the same sized box....

A .223 and a 50 AE have the same muzzle energy... Which one travels farther... which one shoots flatter...

ASTM is there for saftey... which determines how much KE is safe.

[Brophog]

True, I suppose.

Thinking logically from the dawn of paintball, until today, haven't we jumped over every hurdle?

Lets compare it to real firearms.

We have the bow, limited in range and speed.
We begin experimenting with gunpowder and shot. Not accurate, very slow.
We invent the conical bullet. More accurate, but still slow.
We invent the cartridge. We now have an accurate projectile, and we can load them quicker.
The we begin perfecting this idea, inventing several self cocking mechanisms. We then move up to machine guns, and assault rifles.

And then we, for all purposes, stop. We've been at this stage, by and large unchaged, for over 60 YEARS! Think of how much all other facets of technology has changed in that time span, yet the small arms capability has remained virtually unchanged.

This is where paintball is at, IMO. Our big boundary has always been speed, and we gotten that up so high, that for the range a paintball will effectively break, we have almost assured ourselves of several hits.

We have relatively efficient systems, consistent systems, systems that are no longer impeded by air source and feed rates.

What is there to accomplish next?

[tg ur 1t]

who turned the post channel to Bill Nye the science guy? Weren't we just on "AGD... the end of the electro, the reshaping of the mag."?

[Butterfingers]

Thats the million dollar question...

[tg ur 1t]

things may not advance as fast as the computer, but smaller electronics and lighter weight systems that incorperate multiple functions are going to come out. small changes each, but advancements non the less.


oooops, I changed the channel back to the AGD show.

[Brophog]

I agree with you Butters, that we could tweak our projectile mass and velocity to achieve the same force, yet possibly arrive at a projectile with a more stable flight.

The problem is, with paint being cheap, and marker speeds being what they are, who outside of the pumpers cares enough about projectile force to even bother with such things. Without a radical change in play style, the price of paint would only go up if any kind of change were made to the projectile we see today. In the current, half case a game atmosphere we see today, I don't think the average uneducated consumer would willingly pay more per ball if we tried to convince him that his paint would fly straighter at a lower velocity.

While I completely agree that the real innovator here is potentially is the projectile, I don't see the paint companies doing a whole lot. The reason I say this is, when you go up the distribution chain, you don't have that many real paint producers fighting for your dollar. The distributors have something to gain, but not the manufacturers, to a degree.

Whereas, you compare this to say, the marker manufacturers, you have a LOT more manufacturers fighting for that dollar.

[Butterfingers]

I kinda agree with you here for this industry to survive and preventing SP from integrating itself into every facet of our lives just like Microsoft. We must fight this bogus patent...

Unfortunatley thats the EASIEST way. Which is costly and difficult.

As we can see the industry has set its standards... and to create a new standard would be beyond the financial realm of a small company like AGD. It could catch on but not without agressive marketing. And even then its one big crapshoot...

If you look into the future it looks dark... we either have to deal with it now or deal with it later... Or get out before it caves in on you.

Sadly for a fiscally sound company like AGD that can survive without an electro 3 is the best option.

[Brophog]

I see this as less of a marketing/technology issue and more of a gameplay issue.

If we keep going the way we are, we're going to see nothing but electros on the field, for the most part. I'm not saying pumps or mechanicals can't make it, but I don't see that many people working hard enough at their game to make it worthwhile. Would you buy a $500 mech and overcome that speed deficiency, or buy a $500 electro, and not worry about it.

This is what our narrow minded, speed induced, "get out of the woods" mentality has created. You want all speedball, all the time. You got it!

What that creates though, is a very limited fanbase for your product. You can't come any where close to supporting the number of manufacturers we have today if your only selling to one demographic. That's what we're doing.

Sure, we have scenarios, and for a large degree, they're still mechanical right now. I think that has more to do with the perceived notion that electros can't cut it in the woods, which is a myth. As more people start to realize their markers aren't as fragile as we make them seem, you'll see more electros in the scenario side as well. Besides, that's a small percentage when you consider that more and more fields "rec" scene is becoming largely dominated by small fields and lots of paint. It makes a lot of sense for the field owner, but not for the manufacturing side of things.

We must change our thinking from technology, to gameplay dynamics. Create realms for more markers, of varied types and styles. Marker classes in tournaments, more scenario style markers, more realistic "milsim" markers. Structured fields where speed is not the be all, end all of the game.

I'm not here to bash speedball. I like speedball. However, your quickly limiting not only your demographic, but your price class. The days of a walk on picking up a rental, a hopper, and some paint are ending QUICKLY. We see it on a lot of boards, at a lot of fields. No one wants to go out and get beat consistently. Its not fun. To compete, without serious practice, takes a player with a fast marker, a fast hopper, a lot of pods, a lot of paint, and HPA system. That's a lot of money.

When you consider that "infrastructure", just to play a weekend rec game, your effectively cutting out your lower budget players AND lower end manufacturers. Tippmann is alright, but they're the king of the scenario side. Kingmann introduces more and more electro sear trippers every year, and the prices are getting up there in that 200+ range. How long can they survive as "budget" electros, with all the other stuff one needs to feed that paint monster? Players quickly realize that it wasn't worth saving $100-$150 on an E-Pirahna or E-Spyder.

Now, if we pushed to re-introduce bigger play fields, mechanical marker tournaments, pump tournaments, and other variants, all the sudden that lower end market opens up again. It wont be easy, because this industry has all but conceded itself to paint sales alone, but it is possible. It may not seem dire now, because we're still in a growth cycle, but I assure you, if the trend of limited play fields and styles continues, you will see some harsh economic times when we begin to exit this growth cycle.