A nice, intelligent, mature convo about SP

[Glickman]

eh, ive shot them, their not for me. i mean, wahts the point of having 1 gun u use alot, and 1 u never use, when u can have 2 that u get use out of?

[Digits]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Well, personally, I know exactly whats going on.

With that said, I think the entire situation is bogus. Patenting that is like, as other people have put it, patenting the internal combustion engine. Its one of the things that is NEEDED for paintball to grow, and this only slowed things down.

On top of that, it ceased the production of what are arguably some of the best markers ever made, the viking and exalibur.

I dont hate them because its the "cool" thing to do, I hate them because I think what they did was wrong. There is a difference between a business deal, and what they did. I consider what they have done to be immoral, as if to go that far.

Before you supporters say that this sort of thing happens every day, sure it does. But im still entitled to my opinnion on the matter, and I think that paintball is a tight-knit enough community where I wouldnt imagine a company deliberately hurting the ENTIRE sport like that, but then again, it DID just happen, and its not changing.

With all of that being said, please let some of my advice soak in: DONT buy that shocker. For that $850 you could buy a dye matrix, which will not only be a MUCH better marker (faster, better customer service, less bugs, similar design which you seek, chops less, etc) but you will also not be supporting Smart Parts.

And yes, digits, I hate smart parts. I dont have the tiniest smart parts paraphenalia, and you will not see me asking to shoot ANYBODIES shocker. I have, in fact, not played because the only thing available was an impulse. Stupid? Not to me.

Now what did you gain from not using that imp? If you would of used it you wouldn't of been supporting smart parts.. Not buying a smart parts product is one thing, and legit.. But refusing to use a SP gun doesn't make any sense..

And I love matrices.. But I am getting a shocker over a matrix.. Number one reason being the wieght.. I hate how much the matrix weighs it is hard to snap shoot with my opposite hand and with a halo/tank sometimes even with my normal hand when I want to be quick about it.. Trix's are great guns.. But as it stands now I would rather have a gun that is less then half the weight with a similar design for the same price.. I don't care if i'm supporting them or not.. They will get money either way of royalties from other markers now and such.. Plus i'm not just going to refuse to buy a marker I want because I don't like what some guy is doing.. Fact is they were smart to do it.. I'm not saying i'm behind it.. But they did do it... And AKA guns are great and all.. But there are still other guns almost as good.. Like a Trix with an evolve bolt kit..

[breg]

Finally, a thread about this subject that hasn't been torn to shreds. (Aside from a few jokes)

I can't say that I agree with Smart Parts on this action, but i understand it. Face it, you are in business to make money, bottom line. And, that is what they are doing. They are making more and more money.
Anyone who tells you that they don't work to make money is in the worng line of business. I'm not saying that money is the most important thing, but for most folks it is up there near the top.
And the thing is, for most companies, it will cost them less (by this I mean lost sales due to rising marker prices) to just settle and pay the royalities than to fight it out in court. Honestly, I think I would have to do the same thing if I was in the position owner of a major paintball marker manufacutring corporation. I hate to say it, and I feel so dirty doing so, but it would be the best move for the future of my (imagined) corporation.
The other thing that tires me is the bashing of people who buy SP products. That get on my nerves really quick. Face it, if you buy from a company that setteled with SP to keep making guns, then you are supporting SP. And, how is that different than supporting them directly? Just lay off the constant flaming and say some thing nice or keep your freaking mouth shut. We all know why we are mad at SP; so why in hell do you keep beating a dead horse? Just let it go, and kepp your mouth shut.
I mean, personally, I don't like the 03 Shockers much, but it has little to do with SP. I just don't like how much they look like 'Mags. That and the few that I have seen up close had something wrong with them. First impressions, you know?
Don't get me wrong, I just as mad at SP as the next person, but I don't think that flaming anyone for buying something that they like is going to change much of anything.

(end rant in 3, 2, 1 rant ended)

[Dryden]

I'm sorry, but this whole SP/patent issue is a wash. Certainly, most anyone who is current with industry trends is aware of the SP/patent issue, but the ethics of how they obtained the patent, their methods of enforcement, and the effect on the industry affects about 1% of paintballers who take the field on any given weekend.

This might ruffle a few feathers, but AO represents less than 1% of the sport, as do pbnation and others. The majority of people who play - and that means > 99% - don't know, don't care, and don't waste their time whining about it on Internet forums.

SP has - through whatever channel - aquired a patent on electronically assisted trigger technology, and they have chosen to enforce it. God forbid that a patent should actually do what it is designed to do, encourage others who compete in a given market to innovate.

The end result is this: One company (AGD) has chosen to meet SP's patents head-on and found ways to innovate and work around them (Level 10, ULT, hAir Trigger), most others have succumbed to licensing the SP technology, which ultimately affects few who play.

Weekend Warriors - as it were, - myself included, couldn't care less. You can waste your $1,000+ on your electronically assisted marker-of-the-week (or is that marker-of-the-weak?) for all I care, I'll still bunker your butt with my MiniMag.

The real problem with the entire SP patent is that the purpose of the patent is towards a direction that few people want anyhow. Who the hell cares if you can shoot faster than 8 or 10 bps? Yeah, sure, it's impressive to post on your website in .mpg format and to show your friends at the field, but if you still can't score an elimination even with the help of a solenoid, I doubt any high-ROF assisted marker is going to help you. Few people care, and it's only a matter of time until such markers are hated out of existence, or regulated out of existence by either tournament organizers, the goverment, or anyone who still has concerns for the safety of the people who play the sport.

[CoolHand]

What irritates me the most about the whole deal, is not that SP is enforcing patents that they hold, but the utter stupidity of the US Patent Office in granting the damned thing in the first place.

Wanna patent the design of the Shocker? Fine. Done that in 1996 . . . . but wait, there's a typo on page 6. Gonna have to fix that . . . . need an extention for corrections. Fixed that one, but found another on page 8. . . . need another extention. Etc. . . .

Now, this whole time, people are building, adapting, and generally integrating electronics into their marker designs.

Now SP is in a great possition. So they tack on about 25 new definintions of their design's "prefered embodiment", fix the last typo, and BAM, you've got a patent that covers every state of the art design out there, but with a 1996 filing date. As they say in the Guiness Draft commercials - "Brilliant!"

Sneeky? Certainly. Underhanded? Of Course. Should have been caught by the choad that the patent office. Damn Straight!

Not to mention the questions of prior art, or even the fact that it impeades technology.

This mess was instigated by Smart Parts, but the real blame, and most of the hate should be directed at the lax standards of the US Patent office. As with so many parts of our government, it started out as a wonderful way to help people, but has since turned into a bloated, useless vestage that causes more problems than it solves.

Do I have a better solution? Nope. Wish I did.

But I can point out that something is amiss, in the hope of finding a cure.

[bunkermaster10]

Originally posted by Glickman
ijust alone it weighs 4.5 lbs. with a tank and empty hopper, 7 lbs.

, thats heavy stuff right there.

Up for a good going thread so far...

[Lee]

coolhand said "choad" lol. i thought i was the only one that still said that.

buisness decision. pure and simple.

you get other companies to make money for you.

that negates you're over head. ie: no employee costs (taxes, insurance, benefits), no overhead as in materials, machinery and it's maintenance.

no utility payments, buisness insurance or hidden costs that come with everything modern man attempts.

no marketing costs on out of house manufactured merchandise.

no research and developement costs.

no tech support, warentee or repair related costs on out of house produced items.

i'm sure theres more, but basically, after the layout of money to the lawyers which will be pretty much the only expense sp incurs from this, they will most likely make thier profit base as though the were producing each marker without outlaying any capitol other than associated fees to enforce the patent.

so, my point is that they get the money without the overhead. someone else works for and pays them to do it.

"protection" money now that i think of it that way. la cosa nostra.....

[Glickman]

Originally posted by Digits



And I love matrices.. But I am getting a shocker over a matrix.. Number one reason being the wieght.. I hate how much the matrix weighs it is hard to snap shoot with my opposite hand and with a halo/tank sometimes even with my normal hand when I want to be quick about it..

My man!!! exactly how i feel. also, diving to the snake on the break while playing semi-pro back players isnt very easy. ive never been able to snap shoot well, and i realized why.. my gun weighs 10 pounds.. i try imaginary snapping with the shocker, wow, i can snap.

Yea their great guns, but even if the dead air chamber was milled off it would still weigh 3.5 lbs (just the gun), which is still almost 2 times more than the shocker.

Originally posted by CoolHand
What irritates me the most about the whole deal, is not that SP is enforcing patents that they hold, but the utter stupidity of the US Patent Office in granting the damned thing in the first place.

Three people worked in the patent office, and in smart parts, there was thought to have been a conspiracy, but nothing was proven or further persued. And thats america for you.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by Digits


Well I think AKA is just finishing off there orders.. I don't think there taking anymore..

But yes ICD is still going.. Although there prices have inflated a little.

ICD is also using much better quality parts this year, I think that is why the price went up not because of SP.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by Digits
So we'll look at it this way.. With AKA and ICD gone lets see who's left..

Mac Dev - Out of country, can't really touch them
WDP - Out of country
AGD E - out of country
Smart Parts - I don't think they'd sue themselves..
Dye - I think they made a deal with sp (correct me if i'm wrong)
WGP - Who knows what's going on here..
Timmies - I don't know this one either.. It doesn't look like there stopping any time soon.

i skimmed through this thread but i didnt see anyone else say this but:

Mac Dev- can still touch em, they sell in america too
WDP- are touching them right now, note above
AGD-E- cant touch em since they dont sell in america
Dye- correct :)
WGP- also unknown, my guess is if wgp doesnt plan on signing, sp is saving them for last since they would most likely put up the best fight
Bob Long- basically is nps and nps signed with smart parts like dye did
and in addition theres:
AKA- who got owned
Planet- just signed
ICD- basically owned/signed

like i said from the first day, its not a problem of smart parts defending its patent its the fact they have it in the first place thats wrong. i remember someone mentioned that the gardners were patent lawyers and got caught in the past for a scam, is that true?

[RetroEclipseMan]

Originally posted by breg
The other thing that tires me is the bashing of people who buy SP products. That get on my nerves really quick. Face it, if you buy from a company that setteled with SP to keep making guns, then you are supporting SP. And, how is that different than supporting them directly? Just lay off the constant flaming and say some thing nice or keep your freaking mouth shut. We all know why we are mad at SP; so why in hell do you keep beating a dead horse? Just let it go, and kepp your mouth shut.

Couldn't agree with you more man.

Like Coolhand already I am more angry at the Patent Office for actually accepting SP's patent. Sure, we all know it is just flat out ethically wrong but are they really doing anything illegal? I mean sure the patent is outrageous but there obviously was someone that overlooked it when it was going through the whole acceptance process which allowed SP to obtain and shouldn't they be the ones to blame? SP is just doing what they have basically gained the right to do, to enforce their patent, whether it is ethical or not.

As far as them stopping the advancement of the sport I think it's bogus really. My opinion is that it may move it in a better direction. Maybe DW's HairTriggerMod will push more companies to look in the mechanical direction since we've already seen that a mechanical marker can achiece high rates of fire and that system can only be improved upon if more companies decide to move into that direction.

I just don't see the point in worrying about it so much when there is nothing we can really do. I mean, no matter how much we say we hate SP or how much we should boycott them they're still going to continue to enforce this patent and I don't see them stopping until one of the bigger companies actually steps into the ring with them and actually challenges them. Flame me or not I'm still gonna keep using my maxflow (the 3rd one I've owned) and hopefully this whole problem will be resolved.

[tony3]

Some of the top people over at SP are patent lawyer and clerks or whatever, but they already have a foot in the U.S. patent office, the sad thing is no one will ever stop SP just because it would be cheaper to sign, then go to court, fight them, and win. I could really care less all together, it doesn't effect me at all.

[mikebridge]

yah, my dissatisfaction with the current fiasco is smart parts willing and intentional manipulation and abuse of the current patent system in order to stifle (or profit from) their competition in the marketplace.

[Ratzo]

What really annoys me about the SmartParts patents is that they let a whole industry grow with the electronics and then desided to enforce their patent.
If they were so conserned about the patent then they should have enforced it right away when the next electro came out.
But it seems that they could not have done that back then because thier patent was not broad enough to do so.
So they tweak and tweaked until they could go after everyone in the industry.
It's a rotten thing for them to have done but unfotunatly we now have to deal with it.

[Ken]

I think you need to get a grip.

Hating smart parts isn't neccesarily the ''Cool'' thing to do, it's an opinon, and if you're going to complain about that, think about this, we're entitled to our own opinons, and it's such a good idea , that they just might make an ammendment regarding it.

While I'm talking about opinions, I might as well add my own, Do you think there is a reason why smart parts is patenting their equipment opposed to say, tippmann and the ASA, Tom Kaye and the Mask etc... It's because they have a ceartin contract to fullfill, opposed to say, AGD, ICD, etc... If this contract isn't fullfilled they go kerplunk, so that makes them want to eliminate the main competition for their crappy guns, ICD's Bushy for instance.

My question is , why did you make this? Are you trying to repent for buying a smart parts marker? I'm not saying that you should dump your guns and join the bandwagon of, '' I hate smart parts.'' , Unless you're a hypocrite, my point is , is that I'm never going to buy any smart parts product, acknowledge any smart parts product or give information about a smart parts product in my days, and I can care less if you do.

After a years of bureaucratic drudgery , they broadend their patent to a microswitch and then to a solenoid, because of the aforementioned contract they had to fullfill.

Why you might ask? Why did I write this post trashing smart parts and what I feel about them? Where am I going with this? Why? Because I'm entitled to my own opinon and you can follow too if you wish.