A nice, intelligent, mature convo about SP

[Glickman]

Re: time for my $.02

I was watching some All American videos, and I saw how unbecoming their behavior was. They would swear, throw their markers and act belligerently. I cannot respect a company who's factory team behaves like this.

lol, how many paintball tournies have you watched? this hapends all the time, and your just proving that your stereotypic... your saying because one or a few act badly, that their all bad. Go watch Kapp's Factory team, dont stereotype...

Originally posted by mag/cocker lover


8. Business ethics: youre not supposed to put a halt on the market youre in. you want to work with the other companys in your market inorder to make the market bigger.

\

what are you talking about...
1. SP didnt put a halt on the market, 2 series of guns were taken away, (to be replaced by their '04 versions' for now) I am a little angery that they went after AKA, but lets face it, ICD was netting under a million a year, a very very small number for a paintball gun manufacturer. And even still, they are not gone, their back with a new gun, the freestyle, which is actually a decent gun.

2. Business ethics? lol oxymoron. This is america, and thusly, profits, and sometimes success overrules ethics.
-------------------
So if ur unhappy, in 14 years, make the owners of SP "dissapear" and get the patent urself...

My entire Gun collection, and every dollar we get from sponsors, says you would not focus on ethics if u were in the same place.

[Shykicker]

More consumer advocacy from yours truely:

The main problem I see with the SP issue is this: They patented their electronic marker setups, which is fine. The original wording of their patents described only the guns they produced and had nothing to do with other electros currently on the market. This is all good and well. But then, once electros are a huge market, they extended their patent to include, let's see... every electro marker on the market. This isn't in keeping with the purpose of patent extensions, which is: to correct vague or missleading articles of the original patents. If you think that the original patent was meant to pertain to all electro markers, then they are perfectly within their rights. However, it is obvious that it wasn't. They basically used it as a ruse to change their patent to mean something completely diffirent from it's original idea, and meanwhile maintain it's original holding date.

The merrits of the Gardner's previous transgressions come down to this: they are professional scam artists, not responsible business advocates. Unless the FTC is completely off their mark.

For more information on that, do not pass go, procede directly to: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/07/davisb~1.htm

Nothing in that brief leads me to believe that the Gardner's have any interest other than padding their pockets with massive bills.

The moral implications have little or nothing to do with the fact that SP had purchased the original patent and profitted off of it. That was perfectly within their rights. The problem becomes apparent with the modification of that patent to circumvent prior art. Does that make them good businessmen, or good scam artists? Not for me to decide, but it's obvious where I stand.

It all begs the question: If the original patent was meant to pertain to all electronic markers, why hadn't they been deffending their intellectual property in court?

Let me close with some Ralph Nader. This is not capitalism. This is corporate socialism.

[tyrion2323]

Glickman,

You started this thread as a "mature conversation" about Smart Parts. It seems like more of a place for you to defend your choice to buy a Shocker...

I put forth my opinion, which was certainly valid. I presented my case in a mature fashion. I did not insult anybody. You responded by calling me "stereotypic." Real mature

It's not even worth trying to reiterate my point, as I'm sure that you'll just find another way to insult me. I'm sorry, but I just don't accept "Here in America, money overrules morality" as an acceptable response to criticism about a company's questionable ethics and poor sportmanship.

[shartley]

The merrits of the Gardner's previous transgressions come down to this: they are professional scam artists, not responsible business advocates. Unless the FTC is completely off their mark.

For more information on that, do not pass go, procede directly to: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/07/davisb~1.htm

Nothing in that brief leads me to believe that the Gardner's have any interest other than padding their pockets with massive bills.

(31)Adam Gardner is also an officer of Smart Parts, Inc., the licensee of inventions defendant George Davison claims to have invented himself. (PX 57)

[Glickman]

hehe i already have a topic for that.
im just saying, dont judge a whole company by its players. well all well know how, as much as we dont wanna admit it, alot of paintballers are rude, b!tchey, and so on, *cough* pbnation *cough* so just dont judge SP cause their factory players are illmannered

[BennyD]

I think what everyone needs to understand here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if Smart Parts is like most American companies, it is not ruled by the consumer (in this case, paint ball players), it (the company) is ruled by some suit wearing Harvard graduate executive who cares about nothing more than profits, and in some cases (but not this one), increasing value to their shareholders so he'll get re-elected as CEO again.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by 68magOwner
what i really dont like is people who look down on people just because they own SP stuff. Normaly at my field i get several ppl asking to shoot my imp every time i go. But then there are the people who are like "your a ***, you shoot a SP marker" OK, first off i have NEVER bought ANYTHING from sp, did someone have to initially buy the mrker for me to have it? yea, but i raded for it, so i dont see how im "supporting the nazi's"

Although I'm not a person that would hate another person just because of the marker they use, by using an Impulse, you *ARE* supporting SP. You play with the marker and other people think "Hey, he's doing good with that Impulse", so they decide to buy one. Yes, it's a roundabout way of looking at it, but you *ARE* supporting them.

Originally posted by Glickman
lol, how many paintball tournies have you watched? this hapends all the time, and your just proving that your stereotypic... your saying because one or a few act badly, that their all bad. Go watch Kapp's Factory team, dont stereotype...

I agree. The All Americans are a SP Factory team... they represent SP. The way they behave reflects on SP. He didn't say SP was the only team he disrespected either... he said he didn't respect AA.

Originally posted by Glickman
what are you talking about...
1. SP didnt put a halt on the market, 2 series of guns were taken away, (to be replaced by their '04 versions' for now)

No.. the Vikings and Excals are gone. Period. They are not being replaced by '04 versions, they are not coming back.

Originally posted by Glickman
I am a little angery that they went after AKA, but lets face it, ICD was netting under a million a year, a very very small number for a paintball gun manufacturer. And even still, they are not gone, their back with a new gun, the freestyle, which is actually a decent gun.

Netting under a million a year makes it OK to go after a company to suck more money out of them? Good point Now you're trying to justify their actions. If ICD made 10 million a year you'd say "Well, they can take it, they're making 10m a year". If they made $1,000 you'd say "Well, they were going under anyway". It doesn't matter how much they were making, the point is SP went after them.

Originally posted by Glickman
2. Business ethics? lol oxymoron. This is america, and thusly, profits, and sometimes success overrules ethics.

Honestly, I just lost any respect I may have had for you. You're saying sometimes the money is worth it to knowingly do something wrong. So... if I take out a life insurance policy on my wife, have her killed then collect the insurance, it's possible it could be "right" because I profited from it? Does it happen? Unfortunately yes. Does it make right? No.

Originally posted by tyrion2323
You started this thread as a "mature conversation" about Smart Parts. It seems like more of a place for you to defend your choice to buy a Shocker...

I agree.

Originally posted by Glickman
hehe i already have a topic for that.
im just saying, dont judge a whole company by its players.

Why not? They're there to represent Smart Parts. Of course, we all know there's no better way to represent the company you work for than acting like an immature child.

[Lohman446]

I am not technically sound enough to discuss the validity of the patent, nor am I a lawyer. Based on what I have heard, the patent should have never been granted, but it was. Let me go forward and not argue that point.

What SP has done is turned a direction in paintball. All of the sudden design and innovation must be for yourself, not for the community. Good business, I could argue no, American business is poor often enough. However, even if it was good business.. I hate the fact that SP has turned paintball into business first, innovation second.

[Glickman]

Originally posted by FallNAngel

Honestly, I just lost any respect I may have had for you. You're saying sometimes the money is worth it to knowingly do something wrong. So... if I take out a life insurance policy on my wife, have her killed then collect the insurance, it's possible it could be "right" because I profited from it? Does it happen? Unfortunately yes. Does it make right? No.

wow....
Thats harsh..
You wanna defrost those words of yours? :)

Did i ever say that i thought that it was ok? no... im just saying that this happends in america... and your comparing the discontinuing of certain paintball guns and the loss of jobs to murder, and fraud.

Its a sporting goods company, not an Insurance Fraud Assassination ring..

and pretty much everything you guys are getting mad at me for, your implying that i think that what SP did was ok..

For the record, i think most of what they did was NOT ok...
I just think it happends, and we gotta go along with it.

-------------------
Also, if people "attack" the idea that im thinking about getting a shocker, then so be it, ill do my best to put my opinions and reasons for thus in the most organized way i can...

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Glickman

For the record, i think most of what they did was NOT ok...
I just think it happends, and we gotta go along with it.

Don't view this as an attack. But why? Why do we have to go along with it? Why do we have to accept it and move on? What does SP make that is not made as well or better by someone else? I have seen too often people say this was wrong, but its done and its time to move on and basically act as if it did not happen. Personally not buying an SP product for me is a very very simple thing to do, I don't particularly like any of them in the first place (though if the quality control on the 03 Shocker was better it would be tempting). Maybe that makes be biased, I can say I am not going to buy an SP product in the future and that changes nothing for me.

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
...All it will take is an impartial and uninvolved 3rd party to file for the patent to be reviewed. This will take $10-$11,000 (I forget exactly how much), and has been discussed here on AO...

I don't believe that review process has become law yet. That is the big problem. It seems like it will be, but hasn't yet.

I believe "SP" is guilty of fraud. They purposely left out reference to the Navy patent, that they had included on previously failed attempts to get their patent updated. When they left it out it worked, they got the patent updated. While no one may be able to prove it, it is still fraud.

[Dryden]

Originally posted by shartley

Originally posted by hitech
I don't believe that review process has become law yet. That is the big problem. It seems like it will be, but hasn't yet.

I believe "SP" is guilty of fraud. They purposely left out reference to the Navy patent, that they had included on previously failed attempts to get their patent updated. When they left it out it worked, they got the patent updated. While no one may be able to prove it, it is still fraud.

Well, this is a little muddy. The proposition hitech is referring too is for expediting the review process and making it more affordable, but it is available. shartley, your fees are a bit high, unless you're including attorney fees and having everything in triplicate.

There are two types of reexaminations that can be sent before the USPTO Board. An ex parte reexamination is $2,520.00 to file. ex parte means only one party. Or, in other words, you can file a motion for review, cite prior art, evidence, etc. as a third party, but once you do, you're cut out of the loop. SP's patent and application process will be reviewed, but you will not be present at any hearings and can not submit new evidence or present motions after the process has begun.

An inter partes reexamination is $8,800.00 to file. inter partes means between two parties. In this process, you get to bring your lawyers, guns and money - which ultimately costs significantly more than $8,800.00!

The problem however, is that you need to know you are going to win upon filing for a reexamination. You don't want to assist SP in validating their patent by approaching a reexam request with a maverick attitude.

Also, I would add that the widely cited "Navy Patent" is a military patent, evidently was created by service members stationed in the USA (which is significant) as opposed to a contractor or those serving abroad, was patented during war time ('71/'72 Vietnam - peace accords weren't signed until 1973) and is for a photocell operated device. So, given all the rediculous exemptions already afforded it by being a military device developed during a war (which brings to question whether civil prior art should have ever been allowed to be replicated on the Internet, no matter how mundane a device it might be), and the fact that SP's electronically assisted paintball patents qualify for a whole set of other exemptions thanks to clueless lawmakers (paid for by Microsoft) in the "digital age," the assumption that the Navy patent immediately invalidates SP's patents is tenuous at best.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Dryden

I wasn't trying to say that the navy patent invalidates SP patent. I don't really know. However, they (SP) PURPOSELY left it out to get the patent updated. When they included a reference to it the update failed.

[Glickman]

the thing is, even if somehow we gathered $12,000, its not guarenteed to work. if you got a major company involved, who had the money to spend, then its possible, but its still gambling 12,000 dollars, and then what? besides getting the xmag back into the usa, and possibly getting AKA to bounce back, and possibly ICD, what else?

why not use that 12,000 and donate it to shatner's charity, or why not some other sort of charity, where it would benifit more people besides what i stated above.


it might just be me, but i havent seen any real changes in gun prices due to the royalties either, its possible the companies are just taking the blow for us.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Glickman
Did i ever say that i thought that it was ok? no... im just saying that this happends in america... and your comparing the discontinuing of certain paintball guns and the loss of jobs to murder, and fraud.

Actually, yes, you did

Originally posted by Glickman
2. Business ethics? lol oxymoron. This is america, and thusly, profits, and sometimes success overrules ethics

That's you agreeing with it. Sucess does not overrule ethics, period. If you're saying it can overrule ethics, then you *are* agreeing with that statement. It doesn't matter if I'm comparing paintball to loss of jobs, murder and fraud... it doesn't make it any more *right* just because it's paintball... it's still *wrong*. What happens if ICD is eating the cost of the SP patent instead of adding it to their markers? Perhaps they have to lay off a worker or two to save a bit of money. What about those people? Oh, wait, I forgot... it's just paintball.

Originally posted by Glickman
and pretty much everything you guys are getting mad at me for, your implying that i think that what SP did was ok..

Perhaps it's just me (though I don't think so), it seems like all you're really doing is defending SP. You want a Shocker because you can imagine yourself snapshooting with one (just becuase I can imagine myself playing Pro at WC doesn't mean it's going to happen), you defend their factory team, despite how they act reflects on the company. You can't say "I think what SP did was wrong, but I'm going to support them" ... either you think what they did was wrong and not support them, or you don't think what they did was so bad and continue to buy their products.

Originally posted by Glickman
For the record, i think most of what they did was NOT ok...
I just think it happends, and we gotta go along with it.

No, actually we don't just have to go along with it. That's the whole point of trying to boycott SP products.