A nice, intelligent, mature convo about SP

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by joey d
I dont think people really understand what is going on here. Smart Parts is enforcing a patent that they hold. end of story.

A patent acquired thru manipulations of loopholes in the US Patent Act, that allows revision patents to change the original wording, and sneak in broad/generic patents which if originally filed as such, would be rejected. They did this, BECAUSE they tried to patent the concept of electronic paintball guns already, and a patent examiner rejected it as being just that, too broad.

[GT]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner

WDP- are touching them right now, note above
WGP- also unknown, my guess is if wgp doesnt plan on signing, sp is saving them for last since they would most likely put up the best fight
Planet- just signed

WGP amd planet are in bed with each other via the e blade. so consider WGP as owned...

Notice how WDP is droping stock like you wouldnt believe? MY bet is that they already had a bunch of Fly 4's, whatever there new gun is called, in the que when all of this funny buisness started. it acclerated thier time table and I can gurantee that WDP's new line will be on sale in 6 months. Anyone else ever notice how frequent new Angels became in the last 2 years and how quickly they went on sale?

at this point the companies that can adapt quickly are those who will survive, those he cant will perish. Honestly there was, w/o the SP event, going to be a weed out of these types of companies in the next few years.

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner


wrong. i remember someone mentioned that the gardners were patent lawyers and got caught in the past for a scam, is that true?

They were convicted in federal court of pennsylvania for a telemarketing scam involving invention and patent fraud, selling basically, do-it-yourself patent filing kits, and so forth.

[Glickman]

Originally posted by Ratzo
What really annoys me about the SmartParts patents is that they let a whole industry grow with the electronics and then desided to enforce their patent.

its called smart businessing.....

dont complaing because they used their idea to the fullest extent, its the same in every other situation, if u had a plan/idea/wahtever, you would want to use it to the fullest extend too.


and im not saying that your not entitled to your opinions, of course you are, but im just pointing out (it doesnt really apply here too much anyway) that alot of people just hate sp cause alot of other people do.

[68magOwner]

what i really dont like is people who look down on people just because they own SP stuff. Normaly at my field i get several ppl asking to shoot my imp every time i go. But then there are the people who are like "your a ***, you shoot a SP marker" OK, first off i have NEVER bought ANYTHING from sp, did someone have to initially buy the mrker for me to have it? yea, but i raded for it, so i dont see how im "supporting the nazi's" also, do i disaree with sp's so called "ethics" most definately, but they still make quality stuff, and i still think my imp out performs almost everything else ive shot (definatley anything else ive perdonally owned). If i was financially able to be shooting something else of eqaual caliber just ecause my marker was manufactured by sp? posibly, but i am not able, and dont feel i should be discriminated against just because i cant afford a different marker worth using.

edit-please excuse my spelling, im on my laptop anf some of the keys dont work/jam

[JT2002]

Originally posted by Glickman


its called smart businessing.....

dont complaing because they used their idea to the fullest extent, its the same in every other situation, if u had a plan/idea/wahtever, you would want to use it to the fullest extend too.

their idea? so that invented ON THEIR OWN the FIRST electro gun ever? and are just protecting it right? i think not. idk where teh heck u ever got the idea that they actually invented the 1st electro. get ur facts straight, the electronics in a marker wasnt their idea, the shocker was. then they sneakily shove the designg of general electronics into the patent, cmon, did SP B!tchslap u too? :)

[Glickman]

Originally posted by JT2002


their idea? so that invented ON THEIR OWN the FIRST electro gun ever? and are just protecting it right? i think not. idk where teh heck u ever got the idea that they actually invented the 1st electro. get ur facts straight, the electronics in a marker wasnt their idea, the shocker was. then they sneakily shove the designg of general electronics into the patent, cmon, did SP B!tchslap u too? :)

dude, their idea as in to buy the patent and further the technology involved in the guns.....

i never seem to be specific enuf....
and no, they havent, but ive threatened to bunker the president of pmi with my barrel up his @ss if he didnt fix the problem (long story, http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...hlight=gorilla) hes a rather rude guy

[yeahthatsme]

we actually cant blame smart parts for the xmag, because they had little/nothing to do with it. the xmag is no longer in production because agd europe(they mill the xmag bodies) has decided to become the european distributor for national paintball supply, so they have put xmag bodies on the back burner, so tom kaye decided to stop making them. the emag is no longer made because tom has decided its an obsolete design and will begin working on a new design after the smart parts issue has settled a bit. until then i believe he is working on making mechanical mags AMAZING. so thers actually a bit of something to be happy about from this whole thing with smart parts, mags will thrive because people will begin to focus on mechanical guns a bit more, maybe.


besides AKA no longer producing guns(they were given a choice, that was their decision) Smart Parts has only caused a slight raise in ICD prices, and signed deals with DYE and National Paintball Supply. i have yet to see the industry shattering law suits, and the "monopolizing" efforts of smart parts that everybody predicted at the beginning of all this.

[yeahthatsme]

Originally posted by Glickman


its called smart businessing.....

dont complaing because they used their idea to the fullest extent, its the same in every other situation, if u had a plan/idea/wahtever, you would want to use it to the fullest extend too.


and im not saying that your not entitled to your opinions, of course you are, but im just pointing out (it doesnt really apply here too much anyway) that alot of people just hate sp cause alot of other people do.

the fact is that they DIDNT use it to the fullest effect till about 8 months ago, when they broadened their shocker patent to cover the use of electronics in the gun, therefore making all the electro pneumatic guns on the market today infringements on their patent. they also didnt have the first e-gun, the navy made one way back in the 80's, i believe.

[JT2002]

Originally posted by Glickman


dude, their idea as in to buy the patent and further the technology involved in the guns.....

please buddy tell me, in what oblivious way did sp manage to "further the technology" of a paintball marker? LMAO

[riooso]

[Steelrat]

I love the people who say that SP is fine because they are just using good business sense. You know those health insurance companies that fight against providing treatment for a kid with cancer? I read about crap like that all the time, and in fact know someone who died of cancer because their insurance company fought against providing the treatment. Guess what? Thats "good business sense" too. Anything for a buck, right?

I could give a crap what the rest of the world does. I, for one, will not buy, own, or use ANY smart parts product. Screw them and their greed.

[White_Noise]

time for my $.02

ok...where to start:

1. the patents that SP has are illegal: they both impede technology and ignore prior art

2. the gardner brothers are patent attorneys and have gotten in trouble about patents before

3. the only time i have used a sp marker was when my cocker wasnt working and i borrowed a teammates imp for a practice.

4. shockers are some of the most inefficient markers: kevin bredthaurer drops 20 pods in the smoked video with his 88/4500, but told me in an email he gets only 10 with the shocker

5. the designs for the shocker, freak, and impulse were not originally made by sp, but were stolen from smaller companys

6. SP holds worldwide patents on the shocker, therefore, no one is safe from their lawsuits.

7. my 2 favorite companys in paintball(agd and aka) no longer make electronic markers(though agd has not officially stated that their decision to stop making e/xmags was due to sp. in fact, the halt on xmags is due to the price to get the bodys made)

8. Business ethics: youre not supposed to put a halt on the market youre in. you want to work with the other companys in your market inorder to make the market bigger.

9. other companys have forgone patenting their markers/products inorder to promote the growth of the sport. why does sp have to not follow suit and disrupt the entire industry? if it is good business sense to patent everything, then paintball would be owned by one man(forget his name right now), but he knew that inorder to promote the sport, more companys would be needed to expand the market.

10. kingman/Be/Daisy/K2 is the only company that has the $$$$$$ to stand up to SP, if they decide to fight sp(i hope they do) then they can win in court and stop this nonsense

^thats what ive got....may come up with more later, will add it on if i do

[tyrion2323]

My dislike of Smart Parts actually happened quite a bit before the patent-deal.

- I was watching some All American videos, and I saw how unbecoming their behavior was. They would swear, throw their markers and act belligerently. I cannot respect a company who's factory team behaves like this.

- The patent thing has further decreased my respect for Smart Parts. They are using a patent of questionable origins to enforce a restriction of a general idea. They didn't patent the Shocker; they patended the electronic market.

I understand that some people see this in an ideological manner - that they enforced their patent, end of story. I don't see it as such. Here we have two lawyers (convicted felons) who waited almost 10 years to enforce a patent once they decided that the market was "ripe for the taking."

Had they enforced the patent years ago when the other electros had just begun manufacturing, I would have had less qualms with the enforcement.

[Dryden]

Re: time for my $.02

Originally posted by mag/cocker lover
2. the gardner brothers are patent attorneys and have gotten in trouble about patents before

No, that's not accurate. This is another half-truth that got started somewhere, and is perpetuated by the gossip mongering Internet paintball community. Stop parroting other people's wrong facts!

Adam Gardner was mentioned in passing, as an acquaintence to George Davison III, whose "invention submission" firm, Davison & Associates, was charged with fraud by the Federal Trade Commission.

Davison's firm claimed, that for $790, they would perform "quality research" regarding a customer's invention, including legal protection, technical feasibility, and marketability. For only $8,450 - $12,450 more, Davison & Associates would help the client market their product and introduce it to an industry.

The sham was found to be that the marketing assistance amounted to about a dozen cold call solicitations a quarter to companies, which probably wouldn't have been receptive to an invention even if it was the next big thing (tm).

Adam Gardner, again, was not a defendant in the suit, and Bill Gardner was never even named. Adam apparently was friends with George Davison, and had acted as a go-between between the firm and interested parties (other companies Adam Gardner had financial interests in). His position was never stated to be as a patent attorney, nor was he ever mentioned to be an employee. In fact, the summary names Adam as an officer for Smart Parts, as well as two other companies - Heritage Gifts and Easy Pipe Lifter, Inc. Adam was never anything more, as far as the FTC could ever determine, than a client. Adam licensed patents from Davison, and failed to sell what were ultimately bad products to begin with.

It is obvious that Adam represented Smart Parts for any inventions paintball related that passed through Davison's office - though this is hardly criminal. In fact, this would prove to be the rare exception to Davison's firm doing what it actually promised clients it would do.

EDIT: Adjusted to include the names of the other two businesses Adam Gardner licensed patents for.