Steyr AUG Marker

[Z-man]

...markers like the DM4 help keep paintball "public friendly".

Oh yes we like the Nike shoe!

Ugg I HATE the looks of that thing but I would aggree that its a smarter look to go with than making a mock real gun. That is just ASKING for trouble like airsoft if you ask me...

[teufelhunden]

That's cool.....wait no, just a waste of money. Why don't these people convert actually nice guns to cool milism guns instead of spyders and tippmanns!

Because we don't want our guns to look like rifles.

Devildog: The new rifle for the services is the XM-8. There's some info on it on HK's website [yeah, the gun HK, not the paintball HKL ]

[cledford]

[kenndogg]

clelford...you sir are a wise man. As for as markers looking like real guns, I'm all for it.

[Z-man]

create

[cphilip]

Well actually I did not think Calvin was taking a stance on the looks thing at all. I think he is pointing out that even the standard paintball markers look like real guns to a lot of people. I don't think his point was that he is in favor of making them look MORE like real guns at all. I think thats beside the point of what he was saying there.

[Z-man]

Really? < squints at Keyboard > Might be what I get for waking up early and posting a groggy state....

#1 For all intent and purpose, as a former police officer in 3 different states, paintball markers already meet the legal definition of a weapon in each of the states in which I have lived.

#2 You could put a purple angel and a Cobray M11 on a table and 9 out of 10 soccer mom's would still not be able to pick out the paintball marker - unless you told them that there was one present. As soon as the marker turns black - forget about it.

Sounds like he is arguing that it does not make a difference if you make a mock M16 or an Angel Fly. Sounds like he is saying that one is no worse than the other....

So this constant bleating "I don't think real looking markers are good for the sport" is self-indulgent and detracts from that which you seek to protect.

Sounds like he is saying that not wanting to make mock real pb guns is detrimental to our right to bear arms and the industry as a whole...

I think Ill wait to let Cledford explain what he ment. I would rather be wrong about what I think I am reading

[cphilip]

True but I not certain he is taking a strong stance FOR them to be made. I think thats where you are reading it differently than me.

[Mckevern]

Z-Man ... You have a point but you missed his ...

The point is this ... The people against this sport do not care if a paintball marker looks real or not. They will go after them all, maybe not all at once but they will go after them all.

First will be the scenario marker .... and when those are gone, they will go after the rest. And with each victory under their belt, they will become harder to stop.

Calvin already informed you that in the three states he's been in, markers were already considered a danger to the public.

Why? Well I don't think it has anything to do with what a marker looks like ... It's those stupid kids that go to Walmart, or talk their parents into buying the marker for them. At which point the kid's IQ drops through the floor and they go out and hurt someone. It's these kids that are killing the sport, not the markers.

So attacking someone who plays the same game, but in a different aspect isn't really productive for you. Chances are there's someone out there that collecting all the negative garbage they can on the internet and they will end up using it in court to win what ever case that IS on the horizon. They'll figure if they can get someone in the sport to "write" or "say" something against Sim-Markers that's in the sport then it will make getting Sim-Markers banned the easier. After which they'll then go after your E-MAG because of it's high rate of fire, or it's realistic appearance because it appears to have a "clip" ... the crap will go on.

You may think my point is crap, but seeing how 75% of my family is lawyers gives me a real good point of view on how people work to win their cases and the hoops they are willing to jump through.

Granted you have the freedom of speech to speak your mind and I will not ask you not to. I just hope your there to support the Sim-Marker when they come under fire.

[Z-man]

If the poit was to unify ourselves around the sport we all love and try to put forth in the best light that's different. Of course I want to see paintball flourish. Anyone who has met me knows this.

But to answer your last remark; I am not sure what I would do about that. I know that:

1- I think its a poor direction to take the take sport (for reasons mentioned above)

2- it IS a nice easy in for the many "its somebody's fault but not mine" law suits.

If you you ask me it would help the industry to stay out of sim-makers, rather than make them. I still would like to hear an argument that justifies that when the consequnces are life ending.

[Sir_Brass]

Here's some news for z-man and his ilk: realistic markers have been our for YEARS. This is NOT new at all. And guess what, it hasn't hurt our sport ONE BIT. In fact, it's helped the scenario end GROW.

So stop your whining, and if you don't like it then HUSH!

Cledford had it right, but you still insist on complaining when he was telling you to STOP complaining.

If you don't like realistic-looking markers, then tough cookies. THey've been around for years in a niche market, and that's where they will stay: a niche market.

I happen to like realistic-looking markers. I have yet to own one, but I'd love to own one when I get the money to spend. I'm currently contemplating a WS-66 SR, as soon as Dierwolf and gang finish testing the improved design.

[Z-man]

Here's some news for z-man and his ilk: realistic markers have been our for YEARS. This is NOT new at all. And guess what, it hasn't hurt our sport ONE BIT. In fact, it's helped the scenario end GROW.

Sounds like an ad I saw for Royal Gorge: "10 Million People Can't Be Wrong" (in refernce to the fact that I guess 10 million people visited the pace so it must be good.

Just becuase it exists does not make it right. That is like arguing that there has always been a nitch market for illicit drugs or stolen software or heck bit torrent. "Everybody does it" is no a valid excuse.

Still waiting for a response on the "realistic markers can get you shot" issue. Looks like I hit one of the AO springs!

bring it.

[cphilip]

Here's some news for z-man and his ilk: realistic markers have been our for YEARS. This is NOT new at all. And guess what, it hasn't hurt our sport ONE BIT. In fact, it's helped the scenario end GROW.

So stop your whining, and if you don't like it then HUSH!

Cledford had it right, but you still insist on complaining when he was telling you to STOP complaining.

.

Hey now! Thats not right either. He or anyone else of the opinion that its a bad idea has just as much right to express that as anyone else. And Calvin NEVER told anyone to shut up. Never....

I for one think its a bad idea. But I can see Calvins point too. When it comes to paintball we must all ban together least devided we fall. But I certainly expect there to be devisions amongst us as to whats enough and whats not. Where to draw the line so to speak. So lets not be telling anyone to shut up and quit expressing what they think IS that line...

[Z-man]

I figured you be watching this thread....


I suspect that this will degrade but in the interest of hearing from the lot of you that support the sim-makrer design I would like to hear how you justify it?

Heck if there were no consequences for it I would want to play with a sweet looking assault rifle mock up too! What guy would not what to do that?

BUT I think that as a paintall community (heck as good citizens) its our responsibility to present a clear and positive image for the sport.

MAKE NO MISTAKE OR CONVULSION: The problem is not the 99% of us who have this understanding, its the 1% that can destroy it for the rest of us. I have NO doubt that you here know when it is appropriate and when it is not to pull out and play with your sim but since ANYONE can buy it, that includes the idiots.

What is more damaging and dangerous? The fool with the neon Spyder or the fool with the sim-AK47?

And again, choosing to make them look real (and I mean REALLY real not just black color) help our sport how?

Perhaps I need to go dig up one of those articles about a police man shooting a kid who was carrying a Beretta water pistol that looks the same and the real thing. When you have incidents like Columbine happening, its NOT unreasonable to assume that a kid is touting a live firearm. Now tell me again, this is just fine and is not going to cause a problem? Sounds like faith to me

[Sir_Brass]

I see their complaints, but they really are blowing things out of proportion.

And the reason I told them to hush isn't b/c of them. No offense, but I hear about this topic FAR too much and I just get sick of the people saying "oh, it's BAD for our sport! OH NO!! WE NEED TO BAN THESE TO PROTECT PAINTBALL" (that's not a direct quote, but it's the tone that come out of their mouths).

And the thing that I SEE from these posts (though not specifically stated) is that this is a new problem, a new development that must be countered. Thing is that this has been around for a long while and has NOT hurt our sport yet.

The key to it staying that way is to keep sim markers to the niche market where only those who are willing to go to the trouble to looking for these markers and be responsible and committed players will own them.

THe milsim community is one of the most responsible and self-policing communities in paintball. AS A COMMUNITY, milsim players do NOT tolerate cheating in any form, they are VERY sportsman like: being very diplomats of the sport, and play to have fun. The only difference is that milsimers AS A COMMUNITY like to use realistic-looking markers and play paintball as if it were a wargame. These are the guys who, if they had the opportunity, would volunteer to be the OP FOR during an Army ROTC detachment's training day when they use paintball to train. These are the guys who loved to play war as little boys. These are the guys who like full blown scenario b/c it gives them a chance to try out large theater-spanning battle tactics and strategies. These are the guys who love the sport. Don't cast down what kind of markers they use, b/c chances are that they're more responsible with their realistic-looking markers than some TWiBs are with their Timmies and Matrixes and 03 shockers.

Most of the time, you can pick out a milsim player, b/c unless it's during a day of play, you'll only see his marker out of it's opaque and non descript protective case only when it's disassembled for cleaning. Milsim players AS A COMMUNITY (I say this b/c as in all communities, there are a fair share of idiots) do NOT display their realistic markers openly. They know that they look realistic and treat them as such. Also, AS A COMMUNITY, they are much more careful with their markers, b/c they treat them like firearms whenever a gas or paint source is even ATTACHED.

This is the community that uses the realistic markers you folks think are such a bad idea. This is why I say you are wrong. B/c the realistic marker demands a more responsible owner, and as it turns out, the guys who DO own realistic markers are among the breed of paintballers who are VERY responsible owners.