New 03 Shocker vs Used Emag

[No sKiLLz]

[Satan Voice] FOOL! [/Satan Voice]

CO2 is less consistant, only if it is not properly regulated.

As for tempurature, see above about proper regulation.

HPA seems more consistent, because it is ALMOST ALWAYS double regulated. People are comparing the output of a regulator to the output of a pin valve, and then deducing that CO2 sucks because there is fluctuation. Put a good reg on a CO2 tank, and you will find that the output is rock solid, just like HPA (unless you try to go above the max working pressure of CO2, IE its a bit hard to coax 1000psi out of a 20oz).

I'll let you in on a little secrect - I have never owned a marker that I didn't run on CO2. The list includes Angels, and XValved Mags, as well as Imps, Shockers of various vintages, Bushys, an EMatrix, Spyders and clones, and Cockers of every sort (Eblade and mech). Some worked better than others, but they all worked well enough to play with.

AO'ers pride themselves on seeing through the hype, and questioning everything, so I just thought I'd try to help folks get over these last couple of misconceptions.

Can CO2 work in every situation that HPA will?

No, but there are damn few of those situations.

Is CO2 as easy to use as HPA in all situations?

No, to get the most out of your CO2 system, you have to take your time, and make sure you set it up right, HPA is usually Plug-N-Play.

For the most part, CO2 will serve you well, and provide much more bang for your buck (Can you shoot ~ two cases off of your 68 CU bottle? Cause I can. )

Anyway, that's the story.

Wow. I guess setting it up right would be REALLY hard and take a lot of time. Might take someone really smart and patient like you. Or maybe it would only take screwing on one of these.



Good job, hype buster. Still not solving the temperature problem at high rates of fire. Still not selling my HPA.

[logamus]

can i call you a wimp.
it irrititates me when people complain about the weight of a gun my 9 year old neice can carry my full emag setup around..
personally i think if people complain about holding 7-10 lbs they shouldnt play the sport, i'd hate to hear what they say about getting bunker'd.

its not the fact that lugging around a 10 pound gun makes you weak, its that a lighter gun is easier to manuver. if you have one setup that is 10 pounds and one that is 5 you must double the force needed to move the 10 pounder as fast as the 5. how many times do you find yourself snap shooting in a game? does your 9 year old neice spend all day popping up over the tops of bunkers like its no big deal? if weight wasnt that big of a deal why did agd come up with ule stuff? when looking at the weight of two guns, you cant just look at it in regards to how heavy they are just "holding", but rather how they are going to feel snap shooting all day long.

i thought the same way you did, right up to the point that i played with a new shocker.

[CoolHand]

Wow. I guess setting it up right would be REALLY hard and take a lot of time. Might take someone really smart and patient like you. I hope that was just sarcasm for the sake of sarcasm.Or maybe it would only take screwing on one of these. I'd say that would do it.



Good job, hype buster. Still not solving the temperature problem at high rates of fire. Still not selling my HPA. I wouldn't excpect you to. The only point of that whole exercise was to maybe save the first guy some money that he didn't want to spend. Personally, I run CO2 because we have no HPA fills around here, but I run it out of a MaxFlo 68/4500 tank (because $350 Maxflo is still < $2000 booster ).

Anyhoo, that's all I got.

[James]

its not the fact that lugging around a 10 pound gun makes you weak, its that a lighter gun is easier to manuver. if you have one setup that is 10 pounds and one that is 5 you must double the force needed to move the 10 pounder as fast as the 5. how many times do you find yourself snap shooting in a game? does your 9 year old neice spend all day popping up over the tops of bunkers like its no big deal? if weight wasnt that big of a deal why did agd come up with ule stuff? when looking at the weight of two guns, you cant just look at it in regards to how heavy they are just "holding", but rather how they are going to feel snap shooting all day long.

i thought the same way you did, right up to the point that i played with a new shocker.

like i said in my first post i played with the new shocker alot in the last 3 weeks.and i snap shoot all the time, and i mean alot.weight is a bonus.
i do like the light weight of the shocker, but carrying a gun that weighs 8 lbs to a 4lb gun just doesnt bother me, and like i said i play all day usuallly from noon till about 7 or 8. and i snap shoot all the time. no problems or complaints on my end.
but then again to each his own.

[No sKiLLz]

At $55 that's the cheapest adjustable CO2 reg I have seen, but since a 20 oz bottle ($25) needs to be filled twice to three times a day at $6 a pop vs. $10 for all day air, the cost would balance out somewhere between 1-2 years depending how often he goes. I do know CO2 will work with a secondary reg and anti-siphon valve, but if it's going to cost as much anyways, why not get HPA and avoid any possible problems that arise from using CO2?

But yeah, there is an alternative.

[CoolHand]

At $55 that's the cheapest adjustable CO2 reg I have seen, but since a 20 oz bottle ($25) needs to be filled twice to three times a day at $6 a pop vs. $10 for all day air, the cost would balance out somwehere between 1-2 years depending how often he goes. I do know CO2 will work with a secondary reg and anti-siphon valve, but if it's going to cost as much anyways, why not get HPA and avoid any possible problems that arise from using CO2?

But yeah, there is an alternative.

Wow, they sure are proud of CO2 where you are. Most places I've been its like $4 to fill my 68 CU, $3 for a 20oz, and $2 for anything smaller.

Plus, I can shoot at least a case and a half of paint on one fill, so $4 pretty much holds me for the day.

Its not the ultimate solution, but a Shocker on a 20oz antisiphon will keep you playing untill you can afford an HPA tank. I guarantee that it won't gut the Shocker or anything like that (provided that the orings aren't dry of course), but it probably will freeze the outside of the vert reg when you start wailing at 20+ bps. Just wear some gloves, you'll be fine.

[No sKiLLz]

Wow, they sure are proud of CO2 where you are. Most places I've been its like $4 to fill my 68 CU, $3 for a 20oz, and $2 for anything smaller.

Plus, I can shoot at least a case and a half of paint on one fill, so $4 pretty much holds me for the day.

Its not the ultimate solution, but a Shocker on a 20oz antisiphon will keep you playing untill you can afford an HPA tank. I guarantee that it won't gut the Shocker or anything like that (provided that the orings aren't dry of course), but it probably will freeze the outside of the vert reg when you start wailing at 20+ bps. Just wear some gloves, you'll be fine.

But freezing is bad for O-rings.

[Mr. Frodo]

Wow, they sure are proud of CO2 where you are. Most places I've been its like $4 to fill my 68 CU, $3 for a 20oz, and $2 for anything smaller.

Plus, I can shoot at least a case and a half of paint on one fill, so $4 pretty much holds me for the day.

Its not the ultimate solution, but a Shocker on a 20oz antisiphon will keep you playing untill you can afford an HPA tank. I guarantee that it won't gut the Shocker or anything like that (provided that the orings aren't dry of course), but it probably will freeze the outside of the vert reg when you start wailing at 20+ bps. Just wear some gloves, you'll be fine.

I'd be happy if I can shoot accurately at 10 bps. I don't think my 20oz is antisiphon though.

[CoolHand]

But freezing is bad for O-rings.

The reason its bad is because dry (or improperly lubed) orings will freeze (stick) to the aluminum housing, and then tear little chunks out of them when they need to move. If they are properly lubricated with an ultra low temp oring lube (which Shocker Lube or Dow 33 happens to be), they will be fine, and can in fact work just fine when liquid CO2 is present.

Most orings couldn't care less about low temps, as long as they are lubed well enough, however, I have never seen any rubber out there that can take much over 200 deg C (good thing we don't paintball on Mercury, huh? ).

So there, another myth debunked, lol, got any more.

Frodo - You can have an antisiphon installed by anyone who has been trained in cylinder safety. I believe Palmer's Pursuit will help you out, if you can't find someone local. They will need your tank, and the ASA you will be screwing it into.

Good Luck

[cledford]

[Satan Voice] FOOL! [/Satan Voice]

I'll let you in on a little secrect - I have never owned a marker that I didn't run on CO2. The list includes Angels, and XValved Mags, as well as Imps, Shockers of various vintages, Bushys, an EMatrix, Spyders and clones, and Cockers of every sort (Eblade and mech). Some worked better than others, but they all worked well enough to play with.

How did you get the Xvalve to run C02?

-Calvin

[Mr. Frodo]

How did you get the Xvalve to run C02?

-Calvin

I was meaning to ask that too. It's my understanding that CO2 is about 800-900psi at room temperatures and hover around 950-1000 on warm days, but can spike to well over 2000psi if the bottle is left in the sun. So adding a reg that's set at 800 should take care of the pressure fluxuations. But if you start ripping at 10+ bps, the rapid decompression cools the CO2 and the pressure can get down to around 500psi. Can an x-valve even operate properly at that pressure?

[CoolHand]

I was meaning to ask that too. It's my understanding that CO2 is about 800-900psi at room temperatures and hover around 950-1000 on warm days, but can spike to well over 2000psi if the bottle is left in the sun. So adding a reg that's set at 800 should take care of the pressure fluxuations. But if you start ripping at 10+ bps, the rapid decompression cools the CO2 and the pressure can get down to around 500psi. Can an x-valve even operate properly at that pressure?

The short answer is - No it can't, for all the reasons you just listed. (smart fella).

The way around it is in there as well, it basically centers around my inabilty to shoot a mag over 8-9 bps (Its sad, I can shoot a mech cocker faster than an Xvalved Mag). The XValve CAN recharge too fast to allow the CO2 to expand, but only if you are shooting above X bps (depending on ambient temp), however, at 75 deg F, and shooting at no more bps than I can, it handles CO2 with the same grace that a Classic valve did.

Now, put a hair trigger on it, or a nice electro frame, and you've got a problem. Mags, and Angel LCDs have always been the toughest markers to get CO2 to work with, and in the end, they never worked as well as I'd have liked them to with it.

So the long and the short of it is this - An XValved mag will run on CO2, but only at the bottom end of its performance spectrum.

Pressure is pressure is pressure, and as long as CO2 is providing enough of it, there are no problems (no explosions or random corrosions).

That's all the sagelike advise I can muster just now.

Later

[No sKiLLz]

The short answer is - No it can't, for all the reasons you just listed. (smart fella).

The way around it is in there as well, it basically centers around my inabilty to shoot a mag over 8-9 bps (Its sad, I can shoot a mech cocker faster than an Xvalved Mag). The XValve CAN recharge too fast to allow the CO2 to expand, but only if you are shooting above X bps (depending on ambient temp), however, at 75 deg F, and shooting at no more bps than I can, it handles CO2 with the same grace that a Classic valve did.

Now, put a hair trigger on it, or a nice electro frame, and you've got a problem. Mags, and Angel LCDs have always been the toughest markers to get CO2 to work with, and in the end, they never worked as well as I'd have liked them to with it.

So the long and the short of it is this - An XValved mag will run on CO2, but only at the bottom end of its performance spectrum.

Pressure is pressure is pressure, and as long as CO2 is providing enough of it, there are no problems (no explosions or random corrosions).

That's all the sagelike advise I can muster just now.

Later

Soooo, I think he's trying to say you're better off with an HPA.

[CoolHand]

Soooo, I think he's trying to say you're better off with an HPA.

On an XValved Mag - Yes, certainly.

On SP markers and cockers - Nah, CO2 is fine for the most part.

On Timmies, Trixes, and Angels - Go HPA if you can get fills, as CO2 will end up costing you just as much for the regs to make it work well, and is therefor a last resort.

You gotta understand, I don't use CO2 because I love it or because its the best thing since the BJ was invented, but because that's all there is here. So I have come to terms with it, and we get along famously.

If you can afford a $1k marker, HPA is not a problem for you, but if money is tight, you should step back a few notches (especially if you only need to shoot 10bps), buy a bone stock Imp, and throw that 20oz on it.

It comes with one of the best CO2 regs on the market, straight from the factory, and only needs about 130 psi (at the most) to run, so you save money all around. And, when you get some more cash, you can rebuild it from stem to stern with whatever parts you like (if you like).

I will reitterate - You will be far happier with an Imp on CO2, and money for paint, than a Dragun on HPA, or a Shocker on HPA and no money to play with.

Now I am done, this brings me full circle, and anything else will just be repeating myself.

Choose your fate halfling

[RoadDawg]

All I'm gonna say is that when I've used co2 in cold temps (Utah in January) I had all sorts of jumping. Froze every oring in the classic valve (even with a Xchamber and anti siphon). Now it wasn't no reg but hell it worked in SoCal no problem. So basically HPA is a good choice. If your gonna spend $800+ on a marker and you can't afford a $100-$180 HPA tank (48/3k are only $68) something is up with your priorities. Hold off a bit or find a used one to where you can afford a HPA tank. It'll save all sorts of hassles. $10 a day for all day air is plenty good for me, compared to $6 a fill for co2. That's why I don't mind having my 45/4500 (flatline) on my emag. It's small, light and gets real good consistancy pretty much out of the box. +4/-4 over chrono at 275 fps, let's see that with co2 in cold temps w/o spending more money then necessary.