whitewolf airsmithing...

[silencer.1]

I had a problem with him responding to my emails also. I had attempted 4 different emails and 2 phone calls to try and contact him with no repsonse. The only way I got my money back was to give him an ultimatum of either refund the money in 3 business days or i'd be placing a call to the better business beruea. On day 3 he finally refunded the money. Up until that incedent I'd not had any problems with him before when I'd got phantom parts from him. While I can't say that I'd never try to order something from him again, I'm going to be looking other places first from now on.

[Athius]

Well why dont they do like Vaporworks whenever they have too much work they put on their site that for now they wont take any bushies to be vaporized. That would be the appropiate way to do buisness.

[Tunaman]

No offense Tunaman and those who supported what he said, because he has a point... BUT.. Tuna isn't making the parts AND selling them. He's recieving the parts from someone else and then selling them. He's got an awful lot more time to respond to e-mails and such, so he can say "I will respond to e-mail, vote for me." They're working different kinds of jobs and schedules.

I wish idealistic people's ideas could become reality all the time, but it's not. Good luck to anyone trying to get their stuff back.. just note that when you get it back finished, you'll certainly stop complaining!

Well not exactly...
I have a real job too...7:00 to 4:00 every day...and it has nothing to do with paintball(wish it did). I DO know how time consuming it can be when you dont have the time to answer EVERYONE. But I stay up late and MAKE TIME, FIND TIME, or pull Time out of my arse to get back to you guys. It is VERY important to me that you are all happy. My arse bleeds for these guys(basically most of the custom parts industry) that can accept payment for a product or service but dont have the time to answer the very person/s that gave you the business! My suggestion is that they try harder to FIND the time. Or HIRE someone to answer them. You cant have your cake and eat it too. This is EXTREMLEY tiring and hard work to satisfy everyone. Either shunt or get off the pot!

[ShortStrokeTX]

I always thought WW sounded lika grump old man. "Err, don't you youngsters send me emails asking if it's done" "It's done when it's done, don't rush quality" "You kids get off my lawn!"

[shartley]

[Magglerock]

No offense Tunaman and those who supported what he said, because he has a point... BUT.. Tuna isn't making the parts AND selling them. He's recieving the parts from someone else and then selling them. He's got an awful lot more time to respond to e-mails and such, so he can say "I will respond to e-mail, vote for me." They're working different kinds of jobs and schedules.

I wish idealistic people's ideas could become reality all the time, but it's not. Good luck to anyone trying to get their stuff back.. just note that when you get it back finished, you'll certainly stop complaining!

This is a reply to EVERYONE who is taking any business's side in this type of situation. I don't want to hear about your other jobs. I don't want to hear about the volume of email you get. I don't want to hear excuses. Why? Because when this kid sent in his marker, WW didn't say "by the way, this is going to take an inordinate amount of time, and I won't be responding to your emails, so don't hold your breath. You'll get it when its done." No, he took the kid's money with a smile and hasn't said anything since. IF the wait were part of the deal and was made clear before the begining of the transaction, then yes, he has no reason to be upset. But this behavior was never discussed before the transaction. Service is service; its either good or bad. If you expect good service and are not told otherwise, then the merchant has a duty - perhaps even a legal responsability - to deliver it. If (and this would never happen), the merchant said up front, "I provide crappy service", then you have made a conscious choice to deal with them and must suffer the consequences. I'm sorry so many of you can't pay the bills on smithing alone. But you know what? You're cheating your customers. You know that you are taking to much business and have made yourself incapable of quality service, and yet you happily take the money. If your smithing volume is such that you can't anser an email with two sentences, then cut down on your volume. Some smiths do (Logic, Punnisher come to mind), but those of you who don't are being dishonest and may find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit one of these days. Think about it.

I am still marveled as to why there are no feedback threads for smiths. This must be made a prioirty, and AGD should be very concerned about this. Disreputable smiths are using AO to perpotrate thier shotty business practices. In turn, this reflects badly on AGD. As one of the few paintball forums that trys to keep it "clean" and "safe", you would think AGD would take what action it could to prevent sketchy smiths from using thier product (AO) to commit what can only be described as fraud. AGD, step up and sticky a smith thread in the dealer's forum. Furthermore, if enough negative feedback about any smith is made, ban them from your forum. This crap has got to stop.

[RusskiX]

Because when this kid sent in his marker, WW didn't say "by the way, this is going to take an inordinate amount of time, and I won't be responding to your emails, so don't hold your breath. You'll get it when its done." No, he took the kid's money with a smile and hasn't said anything since. IF the wait were part of the deal and was made clear before the begining of the transaction, then yes, he has no reason to be upset.

Maggle, have you even seen the home page for www.whitewolfairsmithing.com? One of the first thing it states under his Mission statement notes is:

"3. DO NOT EMAIL ME about when an ano job will be done, I say NO TIMEFRAMES for a reason. If you wanted fast you should have paid the 200$ for single color ano other companies charge."

So yes, WW DID make a disclaimer about timeframes and emails. I'll say it again, even though this service sucks for the customer, WW made clear his practice. In your own words, "IF the wait were part of the deal and was made clear before the begining of the transaction, then yes, he has no reason to be upset."

Caveat Emptor!

[cockermongol]

What absolutely dumbfounds me about this whole situation is WW seems to be REFUSING to send back people's markers when they request it. You guys obviously have much more patience for that crap than I do, because I guarantee if I were in that position he would have a lawsuit on his hands. Though I would not expect replies for when my gun was expected to be finished (because it says on his site not to), if I got sick of waiting then that means I want it back NOW and BY LAW he has MY PROPERTY and it is THEFT. AND I WOULD SUE AND I WOULD PRESS CHARGES.

BTW I think it's absoulte crap that he can't answer his e-mails. The only reason he has so many is because he never answers them. Even if he had 1000 e-mails, it would only take him 50 days to answer them all if he did 20 a day. And, considering it takes MAYBE 2 minutes to answer an e-mail, you're talking 40 minutes of customer service a day and that is NOTHING to insure that you will not be sued. Not to mention if it takes him that long to ano a gun I either attribute it to LAZINESS OR LACK OF FUNDS (explained below).

About the lack of funds (just throwing something out there):
I was thinking about a possible scenario and I found it quite humorous. I was thinking, maybe the reason he's taking NEW orders is because he already SPENT the money on the older orders on his problems.

Let me play this scenario out for you. WW says to himself one day "damn, how am I going to make this month's rent?" He comes up with a (seemingly) GREAT idea! "How about I start a business where I anodize peoples' markers for cheap, but give them no time frame when they'll get it back... Then I can pay my rent with the money and if I get enough orders I can use the money from the NEW orders to anodize the OLD orders, and when the "new" orders get "old" I take the money from the newest orders and anodize THEM with the money! BRILLIANT!" The problem with this is WW has now dug himself into a hole where he HAS to take new orders, because if he STOPS then his newest orders will never get the funds to be anodized, and when people start asking for their guns and money back he finds himself in a bind - all that money has already been spent on other peoples' guns! Now he's royally screwed and (most likely) sued, several times over.

Just one possible scenario for why WW could possibly suck so bad...

[desslock]

Having worked for a family business and helping out at my local field and shop, which is owned and operated by The old man his wife and oldest son, I can tell you that from my experiences if you own your own business you will work 2x harder than joe 9-5. Also there is no "quiting" time and sometimes you have to answer inane questions, and yes some people will expect a 3 month job to be done in 1 week, but that is the nature of the beast. As a business owner it is your duty to stay in touch w/your clients, communication is a VITAL part of doing business. When you call fedex to track a package you dont hear "we are too busy loading a truck stop calling us!" yes I understand Whitewolf doesnt have the resources avlble to him that fedex does but when Aliens sent an email telling this due that the adrss he has on record is no longer gonna be valid a simple email reply of "ok where should I ship ur gun when Im done" takes a min of his time. Now if Whitewolf ships to Aliens old adrss and didnt bother to check e-mails and get a valid adrss there is a chance the package could be lost or stolen, so Now Whitewolf has to take even more time to file a claim w/ups fedex etc to get the insurance money back on the package he sent to the wrong adrss, See where Im going, sometimes a few mins of hassle work can save you from a lot more work down the road. I have no idea how long an anno job takes but 13 months!!! sheesh only takes a human 9 months to go from single cell to baby and I know there is more work involved in that!! LOL

[Muzikman]

No, he explains WHY he does not give a time frame. I am guessing people just do not read.

---
I no longer bother with time estimates, if something needs to be done is a specific amount of time I suggest any of the other anodizers. Time frames have been too much of a hassle. I wanted to have the lowest prices and best quality, for me to offer that I have to some times hold items until I can get a batch going, or send multiple guns to get better pricing. If I don't have the flexibility with time frame I have to raise my prices to the very high levels other shops charge. I've chosen low prices, they chose quick turn around. You make the ultimate call.

Taken from http://www.whitewolfairsmithing.com/serv02.htm
---


This is common practice for most places that send out their jobs to be anodized. This is also why he takes more orders. If he took no more orders, he might not fill up the max numbers of pieces that annodizer requires for the price break.

[cockermongol]

HI have no idea how long an anno job takes but 13 months!!! sheesh only takes a human 9 months to go from single cell to baby and I know there is more work involved in that!! LOL

ROFL

[desslock]

He still should have responded to Aliens Adrss change issue, that has nothiing to do w/time frames, that is just common sense, Ohh you lived here now you dont, ok where are u living now so that when I send back ur gun it gets back to YOU. That is the type of communication that is important, now WW has every right to ignore lil johnny ADD sending an email every other day asking "is it done yet?" Ignore that crap but at least answer somebody when they give you a change of adrss

[White Wolf]

ok I'm getting tired of all the extra business I've been getting because this post won't die so here are some answers to alot of the misinformation and whining.

1. Customers DO NOT PAY upfront, I have no ones money, I am not sitting on money to collect interest or pay for vacations or buy crack. I do this for exactly the reason so people won't think I am doing any of those things. People that read the page would know this, people that like to assume...well we know what happens when that happens.

2. Things are explained pretty upfropnt on the web page, its not my fault if some one assumes that no time frame means "a month" 90% of the emails I get regarding ano I wind up recomending they use another anodizer because i won't be able to work in a time schedule they have.

3. Just because an email dosent get responded too does not mean its not read.

4. I get good ano pricing because i deal with alot of different anodizers (probly even some of the ones many people have recomended) and set up my contracts with them for the lowest price this often means my jobs get done "at will" when ever they have the time, or run a batch or any number of other variables. This is explained on the web page. I have had ano jobs complete in 3 days, and i have had ones that take 9 months. If i had a say in it I'd love for all the jobs to take 3 days.

5. Just as much as I dislike getting the " is it done yet" emails I WILL NOT bother the anodizers asking the same thing. Usually the first email I get form a person asking when the gun will be done is a standard "its in process" email then the subsequent emails are not responed to.

On monday I will be making a special trip, 4 hour drive out of my way to the anodizer that has the gun, I will pick it up as it is and send the gun back. I hope people will now be able to move on with there lives.

[Magglerock]

ok I'm getting tired of all the extra business I've been getting because this post won't die so here are some answers to alot of the misinformation and whining.

1. Customers DO NOT PAY upfront, I have no ones money, I am not sitting on money to collect interest or pay for vacations or buy crack. I do this for exactly the reason so people won't think I am doing any of those things. People that read the page would know this, people that like to assume...well we know what happens when that happens.

2. Things are explained pretty upfropnt on the web page, its not my fault if some one assumes that no time frame means "a month" 90% of the emails I get regarding ano I wind up recomending they use another anodizer because i won't be able to work in a time schedule they have.

3. Just because an email dosent get responded too does not mean its not read.

4. I get good ano pricing because i deal with alot of different anodizers (probly even some of the ones many people have recomended) and set up my contracts with them for the lowest price this often means my jobs get done "at will" when ever they have the time, or run a batch or any number of other variables. This is explained on the web page. I have had ano jobs complete in 3 days, and i have had ones that take 9 months. If i had a say in it I'd love for all the jobs to take 3 days.

5. Just as much as I dislike getting the " is it done yet" emails I WILL NOT bother the anodizers asking the same thing. Usually the first email I get form a person asking when the gun will be done is a standard "its in process" email then the subsequent emails are not responed to.

On monday I will be making a special trip, 4 hour drive out of my way to the anodizer that has the gun, I will pick it up as it is and send the gun back. I hope people will now be able to move on with there lives.

Wow, you're going to uphold your legal obligation and return his gun. Wouldn't expect you to actually complete the work and send it back to him in a timely fashion, and for free at the very least. Sorry to inconvenieve you with the four-hour car ride. That certainly makes up for the year-plus wait.

I think we've all learned a lesson about your business practices, although I don't blame you entirely; I am in awe that anyone would send you business with such policies as "no time frame" and "no email". Why would anyone send thier gear to someone who wouldn't tell them when to expect it or will not give them any information regarding its status? That's rediculous. FYI, nearly 1500 people have viewed your reaction to this situation; hope your stead-fast committment to your policies was worth all the negative feedback you've recieved from this thread. Next time, I would just answer your email. Maybe its time to rethink those policies.

[White Wolf]

Maybe if you would have read the posts and gotten correct information you would realize it was not "13 months" as you have repeatedly said...but "13 WEEKS" but why ruin a good rant with pesky facts.

And thank you for giving me more business, evertime one of these threads moves to the top I spike a 25-40% sales increase.

If you have problems with how i run my business there are planty of other choices for shops you are free to go to and I'd be the first on to tell you to go to them if what you want is not what I offer. Since i have been in busines for 7+ years now i think I found a niche market and am not going anywhere. All with out the need to advertise or whore myself on AO or any Other Forum.