REDRT to AGD come in TK

[LaW]

The problem is theyre not just concentrating on rec players, theyre almost completely turning their backs on any mag owner with an electro-mag. with no promises for any updates at all, or plans to update the hardware at all on emags/xmags, the only thing an owner can hope for is that they produce another part that will be universal for all mags. However, the software on any electro gun is very much a part of its performance. The marker can only perform as well as its software, so with no updates for it, it feels much more that they arent just focusing on rec players more, but dropping tourney players alltogether.

btw: i dont mean to flame, but if you dont know the strategy in tourney play then youve obviously never played in one. Also, you seem to imply that speedball is rampant with cheating, while i believe many more rec players most likely cheat than in speedball, its just that much easier to get away with.

They are just dropping their focus on the tournament market, at least for the time being. You can say turning their backs on them if you want to sound harsh but I like to church it up a bit

I think cheating is very much an issue in all types of playin paintball but where wins and losses matter its a big enough problem to get noticed. There just should be no place for it in a tournament seen where you mostly have more experienced players than your average walk on rec player. Shouldnt there be a higher level of control over some of these players in tournaments? There definately needs to be revisions in the reffing system as well as the disciplinary system when it comes to cheating and spotting cheating. But I mean thats an entirely seperate topic that can be argued till something actually gets done about it.

As far as the software getting outdated by other markers that are getting faster... a lot of these faster markers coming out are definately bending rules with their rof. That is another issue as well, a rof cap on the tournament seen in my opinion is still needed and its a shame that the first attempt to start one was partially successful at first and then was just thrown aside. If their are money issues for AGD to introduce a new software for update that they cant justify as a business to aford at this time I think to a point we have to respect that because WE do not have all the facts! What upgrades/parts for an emag or xmag would one expect to be developed later on besides possible software? Most parts are interchangeable with mech mags unless its just a replacement part which AGD will probably always offer repair parts.

I am definately seeing both sides of the argument but without having all the facts from AGD on the table I dont think the arguments will go anywhere. We just have to either accept or respect the fact that for whatever the reason software upgrades are not possible at this time.

All I am probably going to say in here

[Beemer]

Why yes I am

Right now we cant afford the lawsuits, others with more money can. Its kind of like the exploding Pinto if your old enough to remember that.AGD

Old enough to remember. Yes I am

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=480&scid=96

can you say petition?

Ford knew of the weakness in the fuel tank before the vehicle was placed on the market but that a cost/benefit study was done which suggested that it would be "cheaper" for Ford to pay liability for burn deaths and injuries rather than modify the fuel tank to prevent the fires in the first place. Dowie showed that Ford owned a patent on a better designed gas tank at that time, but that cost and styling considerations ruled out any changes in the gas tank design of the Pinto.

the jury's reason for the figure of $125 million was that Ford Motor Company had marketed the Pinto with full knowledge that injuries such as Grimshaw's were inevitable in the Pinto

the possibility of successful corporate criminal liability suits in the future remains open

Makes me think of that Preston Tucker guy for some reason.

Maybe cause his safety features were way ahead of their time

[ilikePB]

I was under the impression that 4.2 overcame the safety issue(full auto). Am I wrong?

[LaW]

I was under the impression that 4.2 overcame the safety issue(full auto). Am I wrong?

Although this may be true there are other reasons why a release of the software at this time isnt possible... I think thats what we have to consider

[Miscue]

Although this may be true there are other reasons why a release of the software at this time isnt possible... I think thats what we have to consider

Yup.

[LaW]

Taking from the other thread about software:

Miscue posts, "But it's too aggressive - tuned to the edge of not working like I mentioned. It squeezes out that last bit of toothpaste from the tube. What makes it good, is also its Achilles heel... and that's what this all boils down to."

Which pretty much sums up most of the reasons why the software cant be released.

By the way, good to see you around Miscue, its been a while! (well for me since I stopped coming around the forums for a while)

[adt501]

Just my 2 cents

I can tell you from working and managing a pb store that tournament players are usually the WORST customer you can possibly have (I say usually because I have had great customers that buy only tournament gear and only play tournaments). Im not flaming on tourney guys (I only play tournament ball myself) but tourney guys are as cheap as they come. Since they play the sport every weekend and dump an un godly fortune on paint and such, they are the most informed (ie internet savvy) customers I have every seen. They come in with printouts from five different interenet sites to gouge your profit down to nothing. They can rattle of prices from different stores (competition). They always know someone, somewhere who has the hook up, can get it cheaper, and you should feel obliged to match or beat their price. Not only that, I had call after call about sponsoring. Everybody wants it for free, even if the Joe Blowers three man squad has won nothing and has not even practiced together. In my opinion, there are only a hand full of teams that play pro ball that deserve the sponsorship they get (no flaming on that point), yet for every team that may deserve their sponsors, there are two dozen teams that shouldnt get anything at all.

Then you get the woodsballers (scenario, whatever you wanna call them). I remember loving these guys with a passion, cause they are truely paintballs best friend. I had repeat customers that would only play 1 or 2 scenario games, yet would buy a new gun every year to play them. And they would buy everything else. I mean everything. New goggles, barrels, loaders, multiple CO2 tanks (wouldnt want to run out of air during those long battles). The same dudes would buy barrel after barrel, only to finnaly listen to my advice and buy the whole freak kit . You know what? These guys dont usually bring in the internet printouts. I didnt get the snide remarks about the lower prices of the competition. These guys would buy the Tippman, and then buy every ascessory known to man for that gun (thats weres the moneys at in a store, the ascessories) even though I had cockers, bushies and matrixes on the wall that would out preform the upped tippman, and still be around the same price when they were done upgrading.

Our store started to sell more scenario equipment, and sales increased. No joke. Thats all there is to it. And you know what else? SCENARIO GUYS LOVE THE GAME!!! Love it. They come and talk about it and they have smiles on their faces. Dads bringing in their kids, and everybody leaving the store with smiles on their faces after spending a grand on pb. The tourney ball guys come and complain about everything. Again, not flaming, but you know it to be true. The same guys that complain on the field over a bad call, or brag about their ramping chip, or shoot a newbie ten times in the head. Little twits that say "AGG" and rip on guys for their piranhas. I hate those guys, but I love tourney ball and unfortunatly thats the environment.

So for AGD to say "well, the tournament ball has not been very kind to us", and start focusing on the scenario scene, well, I understand completely. They are now focusing on 99% of the market. And although I would love to have the hAIR trigger or a better emag as my tourny gun, I will understand if AGD decides not to go that route. I would love it if AGD tried to cover all bases and tried to please both groups, but I know how business works, and so does AGD, and if you have limited resources, sometimes you cant do everything you want to. Thanks for listening to my rant. Peace

[LaW]

adt501-

Very well said! That is exactly what I like to hear, first hand experience is definately a great source for info.

You forgot one thing though, "Little twits that say "AGG" and rip on guys for their piranhas." You forgot about the little twits that call markers "Gats"

Thanks for your post I know I appreciate it

[Wc Keep]

I can tell you from working and managing a pb store that tournament players are usually the WORST customer you can possibly have (I say usually because I have had great customers that buy only tournament gear and only play tournaments). Im not flaming on tourney guys (I only play tournament ball myself) but tourney guys are as cheap as they come. Since they play the sport every weekend and dump an un godly fortune on paint and such, they are the most informed (ie internet savvy) customers I have every seen. They come in with printouts from five different interenet sites to gouge your profit down to nothing. They can rattle of prices from different stores (competition). They always know someone, somewhere who has the hook up, can get it cheaper, and you should feel obliged to match or beat their price. Not only that, I had call after call about sponsoring. Everybody wants it for free, even if the Joe Blowers three man squad has won nothing and has not even practiced together. In my opinion, there are only a hand full of teams that play pro ball that deserve the sponsorship they get (no flaming on that point), yet for every team that may deserve their sponsors, there are two dozen teams that shouldnt get anything at all.

Then you get the woodsballers (scenario, whatever you wanna call them). I remember loving these guys with a passion, cause they are truely paintballs best friend. I had repeat customers that would only play 1 or 2 scenario games, yet would buy a new gun every year to play them. And they would buy everything else. I mean everything. New goggles, barrels, loaders, multiple CO2 tanks (wouldnt want to run out of air during those long battles). The same dudes would buy barrel after barrel, only to finnaly listen to my advice and buy the whole freak kit . You know what? These guys dont usually bring in the internet printouts. I didnt get the snide remarks about the lower prices of the competition. These guys would buy the Tippman, and then buy every ascessory known to man for that gun (thats weres the moneys at in a store, the ascessories) even though I had cockers, bushies and matrixes on the wall that would out preform the upped tippman, and still be around the same price when they were done upgrading.

Our store started to sell more scenario equipment, and sales increased. No joke. Thats all there is to it. And you know what else? SCENARIO GUYS LOVE THE GAME!!! Love it. They come and talk about it and they have smiles on their faces. Dads bringing in their kids, and everybody leaving the store with smiles on their faces after spending a grand on pb. The tourney ball guys come and complain about everything. Again, not flaming, but you know it to be true. The same guys that complain on the field over a bad call, or brag about their ramping chip, or shoot a newbie ten times in the head. Little twits that say "AGG" and rip on guys for their piranhas. I hate those guys, but I love tourney ball and unfortunatly thats the environment.

So for AGD to say "well, the tournament ball has not been very kind to us", and start focusing on the scenario scene, well, I understand completely. They are now focusing on 99% of the market. And although I would love to have the hAIR trigger or a better emag as my tourny gun, I will understand if AGD decides not to go that route. I would love it if AGD tried to cover all bases and tried to please both groups, but I know how business works, and so does AGD, and if you have limited resources, sometimes you cant do everything you want to. Thanks for listening to my rant. Peace

again very well said. i hang out a lot at a local pb shop here which is well known(www.impactpaintball.com) and i see these things. but these things dont apply to agd. and let me explain how if agd marketed towards tourney players they would profit better.

ok the scenario guys are not into the emags, timmys, matrices, or angels that tourney ballers are into. they want the marker that looks the most real. the tipmman 98 or the a5 converted into an m-16. thats what they want cause it lets them live the scenario even more. and im not arguing with what you said but usually these scenario guys play once to three times a year and usually a case each time and own one gun. but the paint doesnt matter unless agd starts making paint, cough idea for tom, cough.

the tourney player wants whats fastest and best. and they own two of them at least. i own my main gun and a back up. im not going to say which one the mag is of course though. so if tk marketed towards tourney balls, that would mean that the true maggers at heart (ie me) would own two of them. meaning more money going to agd. see i hope to own a hair/devilmag as my gun for next year and my cocker or retromag as my back up to it. but that would mean that a tourney player has not 1 but 2 of agds guns in his arsenal. he starts a trend and eventually it could lead to 10-20 guns of agds on one team. how much would 20 guns be profit wise to agd???

[Vash-HT]

Its funny how you guys like to catergorize tourney players.
personally ive never called anything "agg", and i would never call my gun a gat. But i love to laugh whenever kids talk about getting 18" barrels so they can snipe people better.
There are idiots on the tourney scene, but there are euqally if not more stupid kids in the rec ball scene.

and adt501, sorry to say this, but welcome to the corporate world, im sorry if some people actually want to be informed so theyre not getting ripped off when theyre buying a gun or paint, it gets a little stressful when you go to a local store and see they are selling a gun you can order on the internet for 300$ more at the store. Not to mention trying to buy decent quality paint for a fair price, since tourney players tend to use much more paint than rec ballers.

Also, as for a love of the game, not every tourney player complains about calls or gets all pissed off when they lose. All of the tourneys ive been in i've met some really cool players, who come and joke with you even after you beat them, and some bad ones, who joke with you before you beat them then walk away muttering about the game. Regardless, Ive met some rec players that ive almost put down my gun and beat them right there. There are bad players in both aspects, its hard to elminate that. But it seems liek you're demonizing tourney players and glorifying rec ballers way too much.

As for cheating, rec ballers may not stick ramping chips and such in their guns, but full auto grip frames are not expensive, and when i used to play woods/recball, i have been hit with many a hot ball, hot enough to break the skin and leave bloody welts.

Im really not trying to start a huge argument, but you say things like "The tourney players come in and complain about everything", just makes me a little disappointed. You're painting a very broad picture, one that I feel is definitely unfair. One mans experiences can not characterize every single tourney player.

[LaW]

Its funny how you guys like to catergorize tourney players.
personally ive never called anything "agg", and i would never call my gun a gat. But i love to laugh whenever kids talk about getting 18" barrels so they can snipe people better.
There are idiots on the tourney scene, but there are euqally if not more stupid kids in the rec ball scene.

and adt501, sorry to say this, but welcome to the corporate world, im sorry if some people actually want to be informed so theyre not getting ripped off when theyre buying a gun or paint, it gets a little stressful when you go to a local store and see they are selling a gun you can order on the internet for 300$ more at the store. Not to mention trying to buy decent quality paint for a fair price, since tourney players tend to use much more paint than rec ballers.

Also, as for a love of the game, not every tourney player complains about calls or gets all pissed off when they lose. All of the tourneys ive been in i've met some really cool players, who come and joke with you even after you beat them, and some bad ones, who joke with you before you beat them then walk away muttering about the game. Regardless, Ive met some rec players that ive almost put down my gun and beat them right there. There are bad players in both aspects, its hard to elminate that. But it seems liek you're demonizing tourney players and glorifying rec ballers way too much.

As for cheating, rec ballers may not stick ramping chips and such in their guns, but full auto grip frames are not expensive, and when i used to play woods/recball, i have been hit with many a hot ball, hot enough to break the skin and leave bloody welts.

Im really not trying to start a huge argument, but you say things like "The tourney players come in and complain about everything", just makes me a little disappointed. You're painting a very broad picture, one that I feel is definitely unfair. One mans experiences can not characterize every single tourney player.

I believe a large amount of the younger tournament players definately exhibit some of these "qualities"... I think some seem to either not understand or forget how their local field actually stays open? Paint sales is probably the biggest money maker, and often they cannot afford to take a hit selling markers at internet prices. I am a tourney player, I am a scenario player, I am just a paintball player. Most of what I say about trends in todays tournament players does not apply to EVERY SINGLE PLAYER OUT THERE. So dont take it that way. Of course one mans experiences does not characterize every player, but its important to see that there is another side and that tourney players are not all high and mighty (not saying thats what your implying here, I do know exactly what your saying)

In the context of the argument, his glorifying of rec players is completely justified. We are talking about money here, not how they act on the field... spending habits, market focus, player mentality. One can definately make an observation on a group of people (tourney players) by personal experience. Its easier to remember the customers that were difficult, and that influences thought a lot.

Since we are arguing that rec/scenario ball generates a larger customer base and higher profits, we dont have to bring up positives of tournament players that are on the level. I dont see anything extremely harsh except for example to help prove the point. You cant say that tournament players of this kind dont exist, but we never needed to mention the other kind of player Might be a lot of useless text in this post but ah well I like to talk to no end

[jonmcfatty]

like i said before, I understand that they are going to be focusing of the rec market. But to me It's very frustrating to spend a ton of money on a nice marker and then find out that the company is giving up on me. What I don't understand is how come both the scenario recball and tournament styles of play both can't be a part of agd.




on a differest note I too was also an assistant manager at a store. And yes tournament players are relatively cheap compared to the rec ball guys. People don't understand that a price mark up on a high end marker isn't squat. 200 bucks if they're getting a killer deal on a marker.

[LaW]

like i said before, I understand that they are going to be focusing of the rec market. But to me It's very frustrating to spend a ton of money on a nice marker and then find out that the company is giving up on me. What I don't understand is how come both the scenario recball and tournament styles of play both can't be a part of agd.




on a differest note I too was also an assistant manager at a store. And yes tournament players are relatively cheap compared to the rec ball guys. People don't understand that a price mark up on a high end marker isn't squat. 200 bucks if they're getting a killer deal on a marker.

Ok right now tell me how they are giving up on you? Besides not making any more emags/xmags due to legal issues and which probably played a partial roll in switching emphasis on markets. Your "tournament" AGD marker is still being supported by agd for any problems that may occur with it. The only thing they are not doing is releasing any new software for it because the only software they have is too unreliable to ever be released.

[Vash-HT]

im totally with jon on this, i dont expect AGD to focus completely on their tourney players as opposed to rec pleyers, but why cant they do both. If 4.2 isnt good enough to be released, tone it down some and release 4.3 maybe? just an idea.

EDIT: added this caus Law posted while i was writing, if a company does not release new software for an electronic marker, then they are giving up on it. I would think differently if they said they were going to continue to develop the software till it was safe, but no they just arent going to do anything. I dont know everything behind the reasons im sure, but from the customers point of view it looks pretty bad.

[LaW]

im totally with jon on this, i dont expect AGD to focus completely on their tourney players as opposed to rec pleyers, but why cant they do both. If 4.2 isnt good enough to be released, tone it down some and release 4.3 maybe? just an idea.

EDIT: added this caus Law posted while i was writing, if a company does not release new software for an electronic marker, then they are giving up on it. I would think differently if they said they were going to continue to develop the software till it was safe, but no they just arent going to do anything. I dont know everything behind the reasons im sure, but from the customers point of view it looks pretty bad.

It is my belief that if they were to tone down 4.2 even more your just goign to be left with a 3.2 I may be completely wrong but I dont think you guys are going to see that much of an improvement over 3.2 if 4.2 were to tone down...

Why does it have to look bad for a customer? I guess as a former sfl emag and emag owner I would never feel that way, so I am just having trouble understanding the arguments here.