Timmies are greater than RT's???

[blykins]

Well theres a "how do refs check for bounce" thread on pbnation. So obviously I ask about mechanical bounce and the rules about bounce, then this guy named "Cuervo" posts this:
"If you have an RT at NPPL, not only are you going to be laughed at, you're going to be so obnoxiously outgunned you might as well hand your tourney fees to the winner and save the bottleneck at the registration line."
Link to thread: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...hreadid=635133

[teufelhunden]

Legally, or what passes for legally, there's no way that an RT will keep up with a Timmy. So there's covering the outgunning part. On top of that, more often than not, an RT can be bounced. Just because you can't/don't doesn't mean the gun's config. won't allow it to. That covers the bottleneck/entry fee part [as your team is DQ'd if a gun bounces]

[68magOwner]

ok, i have played tourneys with MANY markers, including a Z-gripped RT, now, did i do fine with it? yes, is it a hell of alot easier to do better with a nice electro? IMO, absolutely

[BD_Paintball]

I have watched nppl tournaments and i had just about the same mag you have there and yes if you dont have it bounce you will be out shot by other people. and you have a good point that you dont always need the fastest gun to do good in a tournament but it sure does help.

[toolfan62]

ok, i have played tourneys with MANY markers, including a Z-gripped RT, now, did i do fine with it? yes, is it a hell of alot easier to do better with a nice electro? IMO, absolutely

they are talking about nppl tournys not local

[The Action Figure]

wow, if i wasnt banned from pbn id reply

[LaW]

I find this typical of the pbnation community, that is just the mindset over there. Will an RT maybe be at a rof disadvantage to a timmy? Most likely, but depending on the position you play that rof advantage really might not even be important! Even in an nppl tournament. Now you can say its the player and not the marker that defines skill but the way markers are going they are making up for lack of skill with an increased ability of throwing paint... very disappointing and there needs to be a rof limit put into place in paintball and the manufacturers have to support it for it to work. But until businesses can let go of the paint sales they may lose because marker A isnt shooting as much paint per second as it used to this will not happen.

[teufelhunden]

I find this typical of the pbnation community, that is just the mindset over there. Will an RT maybe be at a rof disadvantage to a timmy? Most likely, but depending on the position you play that rof advantage really might not even be important! Even in an nppl tournament. Now you can say its the player and not the marker that defines skill but the way markers are going they are making up for lack of skill with an increased ability of throwing paint... very disappointing and there needs to be a rof limit put into place in paintball and the manufacturers have to support it for it to work. But until businesses can let go of the paint sales they may lose because marker A isnt shooting as much paint per second as it used to this will not happen.

ROF disadvantage is always important. Backs obviously need to rip.. and a frontman needs to snap. Is it not an advantage to get out 6 balls per snap over 2-3 with a slow mech? Absolutley. Especially with everybody wearing 13 sandanas.

ROF limit is just.. dumb. Why limit the skill of someone who can pull 20 bps? Oh, because your gun can't do it? I'm sorry. Buy a better gun.

[GT]

Why limit the skill of someone who can pull 20 bps?

Problem is, I have yet to see this w/o some kind of electro assistance. Ramping, buffering, bounce, all illegal, unethical, and down right ghey

[teufelhunden]

OK, so why limit someone who can pull 17?

Tell me you haven't seen that and my only choice will be to assume you don't play paintball.

[LaW]

ROF disadvantage is always important. Backs obviously need to rip.. and a frontman needs to snap. Is it not an advantage to get out 6 balls per snap over 2-3 with a slow mech? Absolutley. Especially with everybody wearing 13 sandanas.

ROF limit is just.. dumb. Why limit the skill of someone who can pull 20 bps? Oh, because your gun can't do it? I'm sorry. Buy a better gun.

I can agree with your first statement, to a point. I dont think the advantage of 6 bps is that much greater than realistically out of say an RT I could do 3-4bps but thats not a big deal to me really.

The second comment is just... wow not justified. Let me try to justify my stance. How do these markers achieve these high ROF? Disguised buffering, ramping, or whatever you want to call it... no matter it is illegal and no one is really putting a foot down because its bringing up paint sales and is selling markers. Why dont we just allow full-auto while we are at it? 16bps full-auto should now be allowed too then... your taking some of the skill out of the game... changing it from strategy to just camping lanes and hammering the trigger for 5 minutes until something gets hit. Whats wrong with a ROF limit of say 13bps? Where does that take the fun out of the game? It definately evens the field, makes everyone more competetive. What about limiting the paint allowed on the field per team? Do you think these players who rely so much on their "20bps" could adjust? Do you think some of the teams with unlimited funds can now hang with other teams that have the same amount of paint as they do? Fine dont cap the ROF, but limit the paint... wait that wont happen because the Paint companies would throw a fit... There is too much influence from the industry and there needs to be a lot more regulation in the sport, professional referees, marker regulations/enforcement ... Come on now just my opinion and I dont expect to change your view but I like to make people at least think about it... one point in time the marker industry thought it was necessary to put a limit on BPS for electronic markers so it cant be that bad of an idea.

[teufelhunden]

The second comment is just... wow not justified. Let me try to justify my stance. How do these markers achieve these high ROF? Disguised buffering, ramping, or whatever you want to call it... no matter it is illegal and no one is really putting a foot down because its bringing up paint sales and is selling markers. Why dont we just allow full-auto while we are at it? 16bps full-auto should now be allowed too then... your taking some of the skill out of the game... changing it from strategy to just camping lanes and hammering the trigger for 5 minutes until something gets hit. Whats wrong with a ROF limit of say 13bps? Where does that take the fun out of the game? It definately evens the field, makes everyone more competetive. What about limiting the paint allowed on the field per team? Do you think these players who rely so much on their "20bps" could adjust? Do you think some of the teams with unlimited funds can now hang with other teams that have the same amount of paint as they do? Fine dont cap the ROF, but limit the paint... wait that wont happen because the Paint companies would throw a fit... There is too much influence from the industry and there needs to be a lot more regulation in the sport, professional referees, marker regulations/enforcement ... Come on now

You assume everybody has cheater boards in their guns. Despite what everybody likes to think, cheater boards are too damn expensive for everybody to buy, so not everybody has them. I'd be willing to say 95% of players outside of the pro level are legit. Their gun may bounce.. to the tune of 31/30 or 32/30, which is not going to change anything and probably isn't on purpose. 15 bps full auto is now allowed in the NXL, so there's really no arguing that.

Limit paint? There's no reason to. Are you jealous that these teams are good enough to have skids of paint handed to them? Anybody good enough to be playing at the pro level is going to be able to adjust, but why change the entire dynamic of the game because of some jealous people on AO?

BPS was limited because there was one gun with one turbo mode that was ripping up entire tournaments. Now 95% of guns in tournaments are fast and it's not a matter of leveling the playing field.

I still see no reason to take any measure to limit ROF/paint consumption other than to make worse performing guns more competitive.

[LaW]

You assume everybody has cheater boards in their guns. Despite what everybody likes to think, cheater boards are too damn expensive for everybody to buy, so not everybody has them. I'd be willing to say 95% of players outside of the pro level are legit. Their gun may bounce.. to the tune of 31/30 or 32/30, which is not going to change anything and probably isn't on purpose. 15 bps full auto is now allowed in the NXL, so there's really no arguing that.

Limit paint? There's no reason to. Are you jealous that these teams are good enough to have skids of paint handed to them? Anybody good enough to be playing at the pro level is going to be able to adjust, but why change the entire dynamic of the game because of some jealous people on AO?

BPS was limited because there was one gun with one turbo mode that was ripping up entire tournaments. Now 95% of guns in tournaments are fast and it's not a matter of leveling the playing field.

I still see no reason to take any measure to limit ROF/paint consumption other than to make worse performing guns more competitive.

I never said that everybody has cheater boards, dont put words into my mouth. I have never enjoyed the xball format and have never followed it and to know that full auto is allowed is just downright disgusting! To people that are not bothered by it they are either profiting from it or have no idea.

Wow jealous person on AO? Come on, pan am I believe used to have paint limits and the series was VERY competetive. The entire dynamic of the game was changed from less paint usage to excessive paint usage! It is probably a part of me that fully enjoyed how the game used to be played. More emphasis on personal skill and team efforts than mowing down the field with thick sheets of paint :) That of course is just my opinion.

You are definately set in your little world that the faster the better makes the sport the best! That is fine but its something that has turned long time tournament players away from the scene (myself). I am seeing both sides, you are not. I will make the easy choice and just stop arguing the subject.

[teufelhunden]

I never said that everybody has cheater boards, dont put words into my mouth. I have never enjoyed the xball format and have never followed it and to know that full auto is allowed is just downright disgusting! To people that are not bothered by it they are either profiting from it or have no idea. But you imply that everybody ramps/buffers/etc. The rule in the NXL isn't hold and it goes 15bps per se... but you can look it up if you so choose.

Wow jealous person on AO? Come on, pan am I believe used to have paint limits and the series was VERY competetive. The entire dynamic of the game was changed from less paint usage to excessive paint usage! And Pan Am isn't one of the major series. Probably for a reason.

You are definately set in your little world that the faster the better makes the sport the best! That is fine but its something that has turned long time tournament players away from the scene (myself). I am seeing both sides, you are not. I will make the easy choice and just stop arguing the subject. The faster the better is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's no reason to limit someone who's legit and can go faster than your little BPS limit. That's the downside of the NXL rule-- any mode you want, semi, ramp, burst, etc.. up to 15 bps. What about the guy who can do 18 bps on semi? If the amount of paint thrown in one game turned you, a "long time tournament player" away from the game, that's unfortunate.

Oh, and I've seen both sides of the issue... I play stock about 50% of the time, so I know a thing or two about not relying on BPS..

and it doesn't like when I reply within a quote, so here's my characters.

[LaW]

and it doesn't like when I reply within a quote, so here's my characters.

I admit that a lot of times my posts do have something in it that implies something that I completely do not even see when I reread before posting. All I can do is just clarify that its not what I was implying :)

I was talking about years ago for the pan am series, is it even still around?

When I am thinking about limiting ROF, I am really looking at the safety reasons for one thing. Being hit 4+ times after being called out because they are still coming at you not exactly the safest thing. I guess limiting ROF is not tournament specific in my arguement. Just as an industry because a lot of young kids are getting their hands on these markers that can shoot unbelievable speeds and become deadly weapons in the hands of inexperienced/immature users. I am not listing all my reasons but thats one thing I take into consideration is just overall saftey.

The amount of paint being thrown in tournaments really wasnt a big factor in not playing many tournaments anymore. Honestly most of my reasons are unrelated to ROF or paint usage, more to do with team mentalities, sportsmanship, organization... Definately another topic :)

Obviously I am not the only person that feels this way, and obviously others feel the exact opposite. And I can agree to disagree with out a problem :)