Timmies are greater than RT's???

[LaW]

My whole theory is that our safety regs exist because they're exactly that-- safe. Dynaflow said nothing about paint to the back of the head, so he had no concussion...

Navy SEALs show starting on History. Be back after.

A blow to the back of the neck can also cause a concussion, shows what you know...

But our safety regulations are not always enforced well enough and we need to regulate the technology being introduced such as the so called "cheater" boards... basically the rules are in place but they are being ignored because of the amount of influence the industry holds on the sport itself.


You state, "So you played with a guy who broke a bunch of rules and injured you. Thankfully, there's now ways to lock out modes like auto. Is it an unfortunate circumstance? It absolutley is and I'm sorry it happened. But that was not a product of hgh ROF, it was a problem of abuse of a gun. "

What is the difference of someone shooting full auto at 13bps and someone pulling a trigger on you at 13+ bps? I am not saying that I know what a reasonable limit would be for ROF of markers whether it could be 13bps or 18bps, I do know that some markers that are able to shoot really high with some aid of software should not be allowed and needs to be regulated a lot more.

[Beemer]

we already jacked it so

So you played with a guy who broke a bunch of rules and injured you. Thankfully, there's now ways to lock out modes like auto. Is it an unfortunate circumstance? It absolutley is and I'm sorry it happened. But that was not a product of hgh ROF, it was a problem of abuse of a gun.

heres your fuzzy logic again. You shouldnt be able to do full auto in the first place, clearly against ASTM standards[want to see them?] Not a product of high rof[huh]

Can you say uneducated, uninformed Player.

I'm no doctor, but since you mentioned no serious injury other than a bloody neck, I'd venture a guess that you passed out from the shock of the pain. That still doesn't make it as a serious injury in my book

Right and neither am I, but I did stay at a Holiday inn express last night. I would guess he passed out from the blunt force trauma or minor concussion. You didnt even pay attention to the KEY words I gave you did you?

His marker should've been limited to semi-only, as that's what the rules allowed.

ASTM says full auto shouldnt even be on the gun in the first place.


Ill say it again in since you keep missing it. The standards today are behind the times

As for the lawyer situation, I disagree again. Paintball has been through the law a few times, to say the least. In any situation where someone was injured seriously due to a high ROF, I don't see how it could be proven that it was anything but a product of ignorance or abuse by one of the parties involved.

The parties involved are you and the manufacture.

Peace Out
Beemer

[teufelhunden]

A blow to the back of the neck can also cause a concussion, shows what you know...Only if it's a strong enough force to jar the head severely enough to cause the brain to hit the skull.. not paintball strength.

But our safety regulations are not always enforced well enough and we need to regulate the technology being introduced such as the so called "cheater" boards... basically the rules are in place but they are being ignored because of the amount of influence the industry holds on the sport itself. So if safety regs are not always enforced, what makes you think an ROF cap would be?


You state, "So you played with a guy who broke a bunch of rules and injured you. Thankfully, there's now ways to lock out modes like auto. Is it an unfortunate circumstance? It absolutley is and I'm sorry it happened. But that was not a product of hgh ROF, it was a problem of abuse of a gun. "

What is the difference of someone shooting full auto at 13bps and someone pulling a trigger on you at 13+ bps? I am not saying that I know what a reasonable limit would be for ROF of markers whether it could be 13bps or 18bps, I do know that some markers that are able to shoot really high with some aid of software should not be allowed and needs to be regulated a lot more.Again, the occurance of this software outside of high level tourneys is low. Too damned expensive. And they're not allowed anywhere but the NXL, which has imposed a 15bps limit.

ASTM says full auto shouldnt even be on the gun in the first place.


Ill say it again in since you keep missing it. The standards today are behind the times

You contiune to take a Michael Moore-esque stance on this... "There's a problem but I'll be damned if I'm gonna do anything but ***** about the problem"

Saying "ROF is too high!!!!111" doesn't cut it as meaningful dialogue on the alleged issue.

The parties involved are you and the manufacture.

The same way every time I kill someone when I'm wasted and rolling around in my Suburban the lawsuit is filed against me and GM, right? Because GM could've installed a breathalyzer in the truck and disabled the ignition if it's over .xx, right?

[LaW]

"Only if it's a strong enough force to jar the head severely enough to cause the brain to hit the skull.. not paintball strength. "

Are you a doctor? The force to the back of the neck doesnt have to "jar the head" But just send a "shock" up to the head. Am I a doctor, no but I have had a mild concussion from having something impact my neck. I fell backwards from a counter top and hit my neck on a sales rack at a store a couple years ago, it didnt hurt at all and I could compare the "pain" to being hit multiple times with a paintball being bunkered. Will these "shockwaves" from getting hits to the back of the neck always reach the brain? Probably not but its definately possible.


"So if safety regs are not always enforced, what makes you think an ROF cap would be? "

This is one of the problems in the sport today! We have teams within the system reffing our games, we need some kind of professional unbiased referee system for example. We have to stop letting the industry dictate whats acceptable and whats not. The industry has the wrong mentality when it comes to saftey because they are looking at it from a profit standpoint. Paintball needs more organization, better rules, better enforced rules for it to grow even bigger as a sport in the future. This includes better punishment for wiping, a team member coming on the field with a marker that is illegal according to ASTM standards. If the industry didnt run the sport a ROF cap even of say 15-18bps could be imposed by forcing the industry to not allow it on their markers, it wouldnt be that difficult if there was ONE governing body for the sport. And instead of it being run by the industry it should maybe be run by the players!

I am glad the NXL has an imposed 15bps limit, is this for every marker? I will have to go look at the rule.

"The same way every time I kill someone when I'm wasted and rolling around in my Suburban the lawsuit is filed against me and GM, right? Because GM could've installed a breathalyzer in the truck and disabled the ignition if it's over .xx, right?"


Ummm this is not the same. In this instance your bringing in an outside influence of alcohol that is causing issue. You cant always prove ignorance...

[teufelhunden]

I'm not a doctor, but I know what a concussion is. With your incident you had your bodyweight falling back onto your neck. I'm not an engineer either, but I'd bet that the force of your body weight at 9.8m/s/s is greater than a paintball at 285.

I agree with you about reffing.

NXL 15bps cap applies to all markers, but it allows ramp/bounce modes.

And the car example is exactly the same-- holding the manufacturer responsible for misuse of their product.

[LaW]

I'm not a doctor, but I know what a concussion is. With your incident you had your bodyweight falling back onto your neck. I'm not an engineer either, but I'd bet that the force of your body weight at 9.8m/s/s is greater than a paintball at 285.

I agree with you about reffing.

NXL 15bps cap applies to all markers, but it allows ramp/bounce modes.

And the car example is exactly the same-- holding the manufacturer responsible for misuse of their product.

[teufelhunden]

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tournament/psp/2004/nemacolin/index.shtml

[LaW]

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tour...in/index.shtml

I was looking for the actual "rule" not that their is one :) but that will work anyway. I think I am partially ok with that, allowing of ramping but limiting it! Why cant some form of rule like this be imposed on everything? I do however completely disagree with their penalty system because it is not severe enough to gurantee that person will not try to "bend" the rules again.

I love who decides on what rules to pass.. "2/3 vote of all franchise holders"... we can assume this is the industry of paintball creating the rules, wow what a shock!

[Beemer]

A mild concussion may involve no loss of consciousness (being "dazed") or a very brief loss of consciousness (being "knocked out").

A concussion is any direct or indirect hit to the head that can cause a change in behavior, awareness, and/or physical feeling.
Direct Blow
By a stick, puck, ball hitting the head.

Know what the impact force of a paintball is 12ft at 300fps? I have it here some where but it wont matter to you.


Look out the right side of a bunker and have your buddy come around the left side say at 12 ft thats 4 yrds and put 10 balls at 300fps to the back of your head. Tell me what happens.

You contiune to take a Michael Moore-esque stance on this... "There's a problem but I'll be damned if I'm gonna do anything but ***** about the problem"

Who is Michael Moore?? How would you know what I am or am not doing.

Saying "ROF is too high!!!!111" doesn't cut it as meaningful dialogue on the alleged issue.

The issue is safety Show me where I said this. How long have you been playing? Know why the full auto SMG was banned? Do you even know what the ASTM standards are?

How come Football and Hockey players arent using the same safety gear they were 20 yrs ago? Hockey players didnt use to have to wear helmets.

Again, the occurance of this software outside of high level tourneys is low.

You need to get out more.


Ill just say this one more time to be sure you get it and if you disagree thats fine. The safety standards have not kept up with how the game is played today.


add..........

Players are responsible for ensuring their paintball gear meets all ASTM and insurance standards

You didnt even see this did you? You could be liable


Play SAFE
Play Fair
Have Fun

Peace Out
Beemer

[GT]

here is the whole problem with this topic. Nobody is willing to allow diversity in tournaments. We have so many tourny series and whats scary is that they are virtually the same.

Why cant we have?
pump only
semi only
auto optional
Mech only

Why cant we play the game how we want to play some guys like woods, some like 20bps cheater boards....

What's wrong with that?

I'm sure that doesn't count as enough logic for you, so I'll be back in a little.

that is not logic, thats opinion.

[RTDynaflow]

Did we have a FA rule on markers 6 years ago??

In regards to teaufs posts... Yes, I was hospitalized for 2 days for a concussion. It also took very long time for this to heal. I have had a lot worse pain and didn't pass out. What I remembered when I came to - I had come to a paintball field. My first question, What the hell happened??? I didn't fully remember any of that day for awhile. No, it wasn't just a bloody neck. Yes, I was hospitalized, and during that time, they did numerous tests to make sure I didn't have any internal bleeding. I was lucky, I can still walk, talk, type and use semi proper grammar and punctuation.

You seem to be missing my point. How many people were influenced at that hospital and that field by this incident? Do you think the doctors that treated me are going to be recommending this sport to anyone? I wanted to bring to your attention this DOES happen, and more then we would like to believe.

You are correct in one instance; the player using the marker did break a bunch of rules. I don't think if they had a 15rof limit it would have changed anything. I do think a 0 tolerance full auto rule would have. I actually recieved a visit from the gentleman who hospitalized me. He wasn't their to try and kill me. He just didn't realize the impact he could have.

I think what the NXL is doing is a good thing. Atleast in the limit aspect. However, they are shooting themselves in the foot with the full auto. None of this really concerns me, as I don't play X-ball and especially not at the pro level. I am not complaining about 10, 15, 20bps, I am talking about 20 25 30 and full auto. Debounce and ramp mode. If you can pull 20 bps legit, more power to you and your team.


Like I said, I love speedball. I want to join a tourny team soon here. I understand the risks when I signed the waiver. I understand that when I drop my mask and raise my barrel, I am throwing the dice. I have a chance I could get injured seriously. When I cross that 50 off the break I count on being hit from close range. I don't believe bps limits in themselves will stop serious injuries, I think stricter debounce and ramp rules/punishments could.

[LaW]

here is the whole problem with this topic. Nobody is willing to allow diversity in tournaments. We have so many tourny series and whats scary is that they are virtually the same.

Why cant we have?
pump only
semi only
auto optional
Mech only

Why cant we play the game how we want to play some guys like woods, some like 20bps cheater boards....

What's wrong with that?

How about a combining of all the tournament series into one Paintball leading body of the sport? Where the entire operation is run by the players, holds a national office, have an onsite field and hall of fame! Where tournaments can be run for pump lovers, semi lovers, mech lovers and maybe a series for people that like to cheat? Sanctioned events, sponsorships, not run by the industry... Is it really that bad of an idea? I dont think so, obviously :)

We should be able to play the game we want to play, I agree with you but I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere on the saftey of some of these markers that shoot an unlimited rof? A part of me is all for an unlimited rof and I think it would be nice if we could just completely eliminate all these cheater boards out there. Although not every player may have one I am sure plenty of players do...

Alright I am kind of going to change my stance a little on this when I think about it. Limiting rof will probably not solve everything. The difference between 8bps coming at you and 15bps coming at you both hold the same amount of risk. The allowance of any type of "cheater" board, full auto or the likes of is just wrong. You are handing over control of the marker to the marker itself. You cannot control every aspect of the moment. At least with a true semi mode you have control over how fast you are shooting, and how much to shoot and when. Maybe its more of a case of players requiring a little more self control on the field instead of lighting up a player with 10 hits when 3 would do. It doesnt change the fact that all of these cheater boards and modes of fire are in violation of standards already set, they still need to be enforced and the industry still has control over whats acceptable. Without elminating the problem, developing techniques to detect the problem is the next best thing and its way behind being perfected in the near future in my opinion.

[Beemer]

For The Quote

In regards to teaufs posts... Yes, I was hospitalized for 2 days for a concussion. It also took very long time for this to heal. I have had a lot worse pain and didn't pass out. What I remembered when I came to - I had come to a paintball field. My first question, What the hell happened??? I didn't fully remember any of that day for awhile. No, it wasn't just a bloody neck. Yes, I was hospitalized, and during that time, they did numerous tests to make sure I didn't have any internal bleeding. I was lucky, I can still walk, talk, type and use semi proper grammar and punctuation.

add.... I to am Very glad you had a full recovery



Beemer

[LaW]

Did we have a FA rule on markers 6 years ago??

In regards to teaufs posts... Yes, I was hospitalized for 2 days for a concussion. It also took very long time for this to heal. I have had a lot worse pain and didn't pass out. What I remembered when I came to - I had come to a paintball field. My first question, What the hell happened??? I didn't fully remember any of that day for awhile. No, it wasn't just a bloody neck. Yes, I was hospitalized, and during that time, they did numerous tests to make sure I didn't have any internal bleeding. I was lucky, I can still walk, talk, type and use semi proper grammar and punctuation.

I am glad you are alright, really I am because it was unfortunate.

[Beemer]

For the quote again

It doesnt change the fact that all of these cheater boards and modes of fire are in violation of standards already set,

Beemer