AGD at a crossroad.. where do you want it to go?

[maglover728]

Exactly, there are tank covers advertised on their web site also, hell ya I want one! But where are they, I can't find a stock number for them that would enable me to order one! I volunteer to be your personal walking/driving billboard at my expense. Just give me the means!

[Battlewear]

Just some simple thoughts from a ordinary player

Hey Guys...

I only became a mag owner about 6 months ago (maybe a little more).. Any ways, I love my mag! To be honest I have wanted a mag for YEARS! (atleast 10!! I use to play with a Carter Cocker years ago!!)... Any ways, I think this is a really good thread but I noticed that there seems to be some things missing (idea wise)..

Here is how I see it..

First off, lets talk about how to make coin.. We all know that AGD is in the business to make money, and who shouldnt!! AGD makes markers and some freaking fine ones at that! But why are they lagging behind? Well I am sure we all know... Their Electro's being no longer produced in any mas Quantities (at least from what I can tell) and the markers they do have are pretty expensive for their entry level marker in comparison to what is out there..

So how does AGD go about changing this? Well first, need to figure out if they want to try to get lots of markers out there or not? Not as simple as it sounds, if you look at a company like Kingman, they have tons of Spyders out there but they too have a reputation as CR*P (I personally like them, dont have a problem with them).. So, do you lower quality to make them cheaper? I honestly pray AGD NEVER EVER does that... Quality has always been so important to AGD.. So, the next is mass production? Maybe AGD needs to look at MASS production to lower the cost so that they can flood the market with a cheaper mag that can be purchased by the first time player.. Do this and you get word out about the company and then you can bring out more expensive markers..

But this doesnt solve the cash problem now does it? Because it is going to take a CRAP LOAD of coin to get this going and it really doesnt ensure that the company is going to come ahead..

One down side I see to the whole Target Scenario players dirrection is this.. Those guys normally buy 1 marker and stick with them for years.. Most of those players either already have something, or they are looking for something a little more Authentic looking? I spoke with a bunch of the guys up here about this, they all said they would go for something like a A5 or one of those Military look alikes if they would buy a new one, I asked them about the TacOne and they said it is just a black marker, not really a scenario marker.. Hmmm

So, still not hitting the mark making money..

HEY WAIT.. Now maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that maybe we are not looking at the big picture and thinking out side the box...

What is the BIGGEST money part of our game? Not markers for sure!! Paint maybe??? YOU BETCHA! Now, please forgive me if I am wrong.. But didnt Tom dable in paint some time ago for the military and holywood? I would say that AGD needs to seriously look at this idea, it is a way to start making some money.. There is enough AGD fans out there that would buy the paint I am sure!! AGD Lions Pride paint Would be a good way to make money.. Would be another chance to get NON AGD players bringing money into the company, would also get the name out there (seems like free advertising to me!!).. So would it happen? I dont know, I dont know enough about the back ground of AGD on what is going on behind the scene's and such.. Just seems like a logical step..

Now if they did get into paint, the paint sales could help off set the costs or provide a way to subsidise selling markers at a lower price.. Gets the AGD name out there further with out pushing them into the ground..

Ok, so we have talked about money.. How about Image...

Recently I was at my local shop.. I am a very LOYAL customer type, when I get good service from some where I keep coming back, but the sad part is, the shop doesnt carry ANY AGD product!! I am about 1 of 3 other players in the area who really stand out as MAG owners and 1 of them, well I am not so sure, he really doesnt bring it out much any more..

Any ways, when I was at the shop the owner said " Hey I hear AGD has folded"... I said no.. Tom K just retired and Dave Z have taken over.. He said Yea, and now they are closing the doors.. I said that makes NO SENSE, why would some one take over AGD to close it? Its not like they are fighting hard for markey share at this time.. I tried to explain that sure, Tom may of retired and AGD has not really been at the top of the scene the last few years but things are looking up (ok, I am optimistic at times LOL)..

So now it is up to AGD to get out there and talk to the stores and dealers and such... Make them understand what is happening, where the company is going and what they want to do with that person / company.. If AGD wants to really turn things around this is what they have to do to make the first step.. If you dont have the dealers / stores, you have a almost impossible time getting those new owners!

Ok, as for Mr. Z, I do understand that I am sure this is an incredibly busy time for him, I can not IMAGINE the amount of work he must be doing.. Honestly, Mr. Z, you have my Admiration (not only that but I am jealous you get to own something so cool as AGD!) LOL BUt seriously! Admiration for the hard work you must be doing.. Now being that said, I really do hope Mr. Z will become apart of the community just like Tom was/is!! It is that type of connection to the people that keeps AGD from going under.. You have loyal fans, people who will sweat blood for AGD if they have to, and you know, some of them dont even work for AGD! Please remember them all and the little people too.. Show us the love I believe that as long as Mr Z keeps in touch with AO there is no doubt that he can make this company continue to move forward.. Yes I believe this company has never stopped moving forward, it has just slowed down a lot from where it was some years ago..

Now.. other little things to look at.. Idea's..

I love the idea of the EBlade for the mag.. Not that I am a big fan of the EBlade or any thing, but if AGD (or a dealer) was able to develope something that would work a simple mod like this would help bring a lot of the older classic mags out of the closet.. 16 bps a nothing to laugh at, and you know what, a classic mag pushing the limits would be right at home in a Rookie tourney!!!

As I said above I agree that AGD should try to produce a entry mag, I think $450 US for a entry is to much (sorry, I just do).. Maybe it is because I am in Canada and that mag now jumps to $550.00 for entry? I can buy a Spyder Electro for that price.. Aim that price in around $200 to $300.00 (ok pushing the edge) and you will start to get noticed, but this HAS!! to be a marker that you just slap a bottle & hopper on it and go, if you cant do that then you will never be able to make a entry marker..

Lastly, here is an idea I came up with.. I am not sure how this would go over, but here it is, Tuna, Rogue, maybe you guys will like this

- AGD needs to work with guys like these (Tuna, Rogue, Devil, etc)... These guys are helping to push the envelope of the mag, but they need AGD's help to really make it worth something.. So, lets save AGD some R&D money, and allow the Dealers do it, but here is how it works.. Say a Dealer (lets call him Dealer A) produces some kind of cool mod (a trigger frame (and I have a cool idea about that too)) that can accept all the goodies of a major manufactured E-guts and slap them in, instant electro right? OK COOL! People love the idea and buy lots on AO.. But now AGD is trying to get out in the market more.. So after the dealer hits a special number of sales (say 100,000) AGD accepts to take the product on line and run with it.. Sure the Dealer continues to get a peice of the pie, wouldnt be fair if they didnt!! but now AGD takes over production and sales, by doing so they can now pass this product around to all the stores that are still selling for them, sales goes up, the dealer makes more and AGD makes more with out having the huge outlay of cash to develope said product.. Now! One thing to say, the Dealer would have to assume some responsiblity with this, and this is what makes the Manufacturing part troublesome.. IF a problem occurs with the item then the dealer has to be ready to step up or has to have some kind of deal with AGD that if a problem does occur later on that they will accept it.. I see this as a way to have awesome products that people like ROGUE and TUNA and DEVIL are making and getting them out there in a much LARGER mass form.. Do that and BANG you have a piece of the markey share..

Ok, I know some of what I said is a bit wacked.. I'm tired, and rambling, but take it with a grain of salt here.. We all want to see AGD rock on! We all wish Tom the best and Dave too! The best thing we can do as fans of AGD is to continue what WE are doing, give them feed back (good and bad), keep telling people about this amazing product and just go out and have fun with our mags!!

Oh and another paint name Pheonix Paint, because it is AGD RISING FROM the ashes of the industry LOL Oh and I loved the idea of TITAN (new marker named for Tom!) but could also do TITAN PAINT (big bore paint).

Hope you didnt fall asleep reading my post.. but I had to post here

CHUFF CHUFF!
VIVA LA MAG!

[alouba]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:

most excellent post

[tyrion2323]

The problem is that AGD gave up on the tournament market, which is the Halo market, really. And then they blamed hype for doing it to them. They can keep the blow forward design, but it needs some tweaking.

Efficiency. Probably have to raise pressure and devolumize, but even the freestyle now gets better efficiency than a mag.

Move the reg. I know this will create some problems with on/off placement and such, but AGD needs to make a reg in the foregrip, for familiarity if nothing else.

No external hoses. They're hideous, and a gas through rail? Not hard at all to do.

Ditch level 10. You heard me, no one cares.

Get eyes. Proactive solution to chopping. Can queue shots.

Make it a spyder style sear tripper with ULT. Provide proprietary rechargable battery in the grip frame.

Make an attractive body. Anyone of Nicad's would work. Mags have never had any milling, so they haven't sold. People don't want to shoot an ugly gun, no matter what.

AGD's intrinsic problem has ALWAYS been that they are somehow "right" and everyone else is wrong.

And their markers have been getting hammered in sales for years because of it. Not only that, They've doggedly stuck by LX, the COPS of mags.

You guys know its true. A mag could be produced for $300 that would own most everything. Hell, give it a 15bps capped board that queues shots from the eyes, use those 16bps classic valves, give it some milling, foregrip, and a gasthrough rail, and watch it destroy WGP's Trilogy.

I agree 100% with Lurker on this post. He brings up so many great points, but the most important of which is the attitude which many AGD-Shooters cop: the attitude that somehow AOers are significantly more englightened and intelligent when it comes to just about everything paintball. Now, I love 'mags; however, they just don't cut it in comparison to today's super markers. A timmy, matrix, viking, borg, etc. all shoot faster and more efficiently than any 'mag. I had a mech mag for three years, and watching the mag starve on a tank at 800psi was just sad.

Here's my dream for the new AGD Marker:

AGD Panther
- Lightweight, aluminum body (fully enclosing) with integrated rail and air channel
- In-line regulator
- Redesigned X-Valve, lightweight normal bolt
- Electronic functioning (ACE, uncapped board, fast solenoid, etc)
- Choice between 45 and vert grip frame (like Angels)
- Rail ASA with on/off

Price it at $650 stock with a selection of different colors. sponsor a few teams. Try working for it, and see how successful you become!

The key isn't to remove your business from mainstream-paintball and grumble about it. It's to build the best product out there and market the heck out of it. Despite what many people here think, the 'mag is NOT the best marker out there.

[Hellfire Angels 05]

my input

the thing i hate about alot of people who dont knoq much about mags is that they come up to you at the field and they ask you questions about your gun they get to the question "is your gun electronic" and if you have a mech mag you respond " no, but it can keep up with the electros" and you know what their arrogance cant exceed them and they think "yeah right or whatever." thats what i cant stand about newbs or electro kids they think just because they have a electronic gun they can shoot faster when in reality they can barely shoot over 20 bps so i think AGD needs to advertise their products, once they do that people will have more mags and the arrogant electros(as i like to call them) will realize yeah that mech gun can keep up with me and newbs will say its an easy gun to maintain because i dont have to worry about electronics/battery and it has about three basic components!!

As for upgrading the gun keep the same design try to make the gun lighter by getting better materials and intergrate the macro into the rail and but it through the inline and also

KEEP THE MECHANICAL AUTOMAG ALIVE!!!

[B.A.M.]

I dont know about you but all the electro kids at my field are like amazed at my gun. They love shooting it with the ULT

[tdogreb]

I've noticed on this thread everyone talking about,scenario or tourney players, but this is what I see. At the fields around here we play speedball, tournament players play speedball, when I go to a scenario game I am surrounded by people that play speedball at local fields unless they are at a scenario game. Paintball today at legal fields is speedball. Most people use the same marker at scenarios and tourneys that they use at thier local field.
AGD needs a cheap entry level marker, with electric frame, that can be upgraded as the player grows with the game.
One more thought, new body style every year, just like the other manufacturers, same old marker, new body, keeps people looking at the product.

[JRingold]

It's all about company image...

I would like to see AGD become more visible as an industry leading organization. The paintball industry is missing a clear visionary company, currently. Sure there is a leading company in sales and name recognition, but I don't think they are visionary. It seems that most of the companies are all about profit and don't care what it takes to get that. AGD has never seemed like that company to me.

If AGD turned the industry around and started focusing on the people that played paintball, that would be a huge step. AGD should take a front spot in showing that the company is more about helping people have fun playing paintball than in making profit. I think that if you succeed at the first, you will succeed at the second.

AGD needs to get involved with additional players groups that show the brighter side of paintball and distance themselves from the attitude of other companies that are focusing on the tournament players. Most of the paintball players in N. America and in the world will not be able to play successfully at a tournament level for a sustained time. Focusing on the recreational player may not be "sexy", but it has a longer life, at least in my opinion. They need to work on growing the base of people who are playing paintball; help teach younger paintball players the proper way, place and time to play paintball. They need to help with providing experts to speak with political figures to show that paintball as an industry isn't about violence and vandalism, but is about playing a sport.

They also need to distance themselves from companies such as Evil. I single them out because of the slogan: "...we are freaking evil. We really don't give a crap what other people think or what they do, we will always take it one step further then they ever will. And yes those are my balls on your face." In doing this, they are advancing the major problem outsiders have with paintball. Outsiders see the sport as an act of violence. We never see the stories about how paintball is good for people, like we do with other sports. We only see the stories about how someone was injured in an accident. We see stories about stupid people out vandalizing neighborhoods and performing drive-by's. AGD needs to try to cast a bright light onto paintball and show that they are leading the way against this behavior. Without someone leading the way, these behaviors will lead to additional paintball bans.

I say that AGD needs to do this, because it's time for them to make a paradigm shift in the industry. If AGD works with the NPPL and other organizations, they are in a perfect position. AGD doesn't have many of the image problems that other paintball companies currently carry. They have never tried to make a product that would enable someone to cheat, or beat the ref or "bend" a rule. They are the perfect candidate to turn the paintball market in their favor.

Sorry for the long post, did I throw down the gantlet?

Then again, they cold do nothing and see if someone else will step up; probably Tippmann.

As far as products go...Yup, they need an entry level marker. Yup it needs to be able to run on CO2. The biggest compliment I ever got on my Mag happens all the time, "I didn't know 'Mags could do that." If the rec. ball players don't know what they can do, to whom do you sell?

[Chronobreak]

unles zupe has significantly diff views on the electro craze than toms i wouldnt expect seeing an electro option from agd soon.

for those of you that want a REAL e-frame made for shooting fast and doing things RIGHT talk to pbx ronin who is considering it and they aleady have lisinces etc etc. problem solved


as i think wckeep said in another thread it would cost about the same to make a classic as well as an x-valve

releasing classics and theri bad stigma at this point would do more damage than good.

an electro that maxed at 15 with shootdown over liek 13.. :spit_take

x-valve is what we got and its here to stay. its a GREAT PRICE ex since classics were the price of a new ule just 2-3 years ago.

uhm just some things i wanted to say as i skimmed the thread. alot of good info and ideas here


we really need to get the POSITIVE mag image back and out there.

:back to chanting for me...

WE WANT WARP SLUGS WE WANT WARP SLUGS to the rythm of the banana

[silent running]

marketing and the beast

I have played with automags for a long time, I think they are the best marker out there. Obvously other people do not think so. Either I am wrong or it is a question of perception or the lack of it. Somewhere AGD has failed to market it products, yes there is some fine tuning that can be done, but over all really good stuff. I think a lot of the people in the business are like a cliche, kind of like when you go to a tournement and all the breaks go in favor of certain people, you get their cheating on tape, the ref's pay special interest in you, while the other guys can do what they want. That kind of thing comes from the top down, the way they do business and this has happened more time then I care to talk about. I think in the same cut throat way AGD has been cut out of the inner circle. People who do the magazines are not above taking perks, sure. The way people in the the industry look at it, there is the pie and they want it all and AGD has and is a threat. What I beleive is the same dirty way the whole tournement thing has been run for years, it the same way business has been run, because in the end they are one in the same ( I am not talking about the patent issues). I believe Tom Kaye is not that type of person and has alienated himself from the rest of the industry. Mainly because he does not want to roll in the same filth. I think it has been a separation that has been going on for a while. I do not want to tell anybody what to think and I may be off, but these are my thoughts.

[UpliftedApe]

Development

I like most of you hear read Tom's opinion on the modern paintball industry we have these days. His opinion on what passes for innovation in paintball is of course understandable, after all milling a new body every year does NOT equal performance. The main problem seems to be the image of the mag as an outdated high pressure paint shredding gas hog. Everyone wants "air effcient low pressure markers". Nothing else to it the automag is the only gun that fires BETTER at high pressures. When I got my first automag in 99 every proshop in my city carried parts, "upgrades" body kits barrels everything, now you are lucky if your proshop has a twist lock cut barrel. In 6 years the mag has totally faded from most of the scene. Almost all of us have to order parts from the few online people who still carry parts or from AGD it's self. Whats sad is that most tourney people I run into who are usually field ref's have gained more and mroe respect for the mag simply because of me and my friends pushing and playing with them. We go out there every weekend with our E-mags, or ULT equipped ULE's and just own the competition with not a single barrel break. I have convinced several dozen people to buy mags, I push the holy word of the mag at every field I play at in my city. We all know the truth and it hurts to just admit it. Tom fell behind the curve in innovation. we know 26cps is NOT the fast recharge in the universe, everyone has seen everything new out shoot a mag, the standard is becoming 30bps and all ready that is being pushed. We all know here that is nearly impossible for a regular person to come close to pulling the trigger 30 bps, but it's the vids every where, it's the refs and the tourneys players with their, angles vikings, etc , etc.. laying waste to cases of paint in mere seconds infront of 150 rec ballers and noob's who don't know better.

Most of us here know tourney, or what I like to call pro rec ballers alike, that the kids and ex military, and police people love strapping on abunch of plastic or aluminum parts on to a tippman and making an m16, or anm4 or what have you. But we all know also that bar none a stainless steel classic mag will a) not only shoot a tippman but is 100 times more durable b) out shot the tippman any day of the week, even with their response triggers c) are still lighter. But do you ever here a ref or anybody else in the game suggest an automag over a tippman for a 1st gun? I mean finally now a new Automag is freaking dirt cheap for an intro paintball gun, yet no one in my town carries and single one on their walls. They are super light and put every autococker to shame, but again do we see mags? Tom unlike bud orr knew how to build a gun, Bud unlike tom knew how to push his junk heap to the top and keep it there.

A number of us own E-mags and X-mags we want them to be recognized for their tourney worth even now, but do we get respect at fields? Frequently it's just another our autocockers are better our timmies are better and on and on. Lets just admit something now, they are! I live in Texas and down here if you had a RT mag you were allowed to jack that pressure up and use the in built RT, you know why? Because we paid for the privilage by owning Airgun designs products. Now not evrn that counts for anything on the field, but lately as the next generation of players who didn't grow up in the autococker/ automag war become mroe open minded to a fast mech and a sleek low design that only tom could have originally come up with emerge I find they are not automatically hateful of a mag, especially when the only thing they have seen from them is a lvl 10 rocking everyones world over and over again. Tom created the gun we love and trust, but Tom also sank his boat by not moving away from high pressures and mechanical dependency. The x-mag should have come out with no selector switch, no firing stud, and smaller lighter solenoid that could handle the considerably high ROF tourney people demand. We all know this, but we need to say these things, we know they come out with solid good products ther eis no reason to put in tons of redundancy, it just makes it seem prone to breaking to most people. The warp feed came out before the Halo, or the Evolution were a glint in peoples eyes, but again it only went so far and then it too didn't keep up with the times. We all know know this it's just hard to admit to each other, we are part of the small niche of tough durable indestructable guns, probably the last the painball world will see, until the company puts in some serious R&B and pushes both rec and scenario, tourney player and newbie.

The reguilatro design is beautiful there is no simpler or more direct pball marker in existance to my knowledge, however would it have been such a hard thing to make a bolt-less gun, with some sort of orficing diaphram or something that nature, potentially unlimted rat of fire, or have a 30bps warp built straight in the main body chamber, much like Tippmann finally did with their A5? Even with the development of the ULT people want the RT feature, I see so many flatlined RT A5's now it's rediculous. When I played "outlaw" ball in a creek bed nothing but RT tippman, the closest thing you have to Full Auto, unless you play with an Automag Rt on 1200PSI come on you ALL know what I mean. This si the failing of Airgun designs, they went from defining speed ball and woods ball, defining the sport at the fore front, developing the trends everyone else would follow, to the johnny come latelys.

For those too young to know what is what watch the tourney's from ESPN, For those who just don't remember same goes from you. All you see on one team is mags and the other autocockers, but when you watch commercials even then all you here is cocker cocker, but if you watch who gets owned namely guys like bob palmer and various other "big names" you will notice it is always at the end of an automag! Watch the vids and remeber whether you did speed ball or woods ball the Automag was the Best at both hands DOWN! Just look at the size of those old cockers they are ENORMOUS, but the mag is just as sleak and beautiful as always.

http://www.webdogradio.us/video/oldschool

The guys who run the show now need to higher some seriously innovative people, and throw money at R&D and more then anything market the mag AGAIN,show everyone you don't need a piece of crap electronic eye to make a ball not break in the breach, I beeseech the people of Airgun designs innovate! I am willing, I am physicst with a simple lab job and not much going on I will volunteer 8 months of my life before grad school to make the people of this forum's dreams a reality!

I appologize for any poor grammar and spelling, I am tired, extremely frustrated, and I just don't feel like error correcting this in micrsoft office right now.

Enjoy my 2cents!

[jewie27]

I would really like AGD to keep working on better mechanical markers. Keep the idea of the X-Valve and they need to make a very light pnuematic trigger. Whatever they can do to make something like the HAir trigger; it needs to be done.

It would be great for AGD to keep working on new loading systems just like the Warp Feed. It would be great to see a new version of the Warp, which would be smaller in size and a lot lighter weight.

[jewie27]

Eventhough I know that AGD is pushing into the scenario market, I really believe that they should stay in the tournament world also. If they push their marketing the right way and create
new products...

It's been about 4 or 5 years since I have actually seen an AGD advertisement in a magazine. It's been about 4 years since I've seen new Mags being sold in proshops. It's so so sad to see
Mags in Los Angeles disappear. Nearly everyone and their mom shoots a DM4 or 'Cocker.. I'm usutally the only Mag owner on the field.

When they stopped sponsoring teams, that's when AGD kinda went downhill. I mean not in quality though.

I will always be loyal to AGD because I have seen how well the design team can work. I was here to beta test the Level 10 bolt, which really changed Mags forever.

I believe AGD was the FIRST to create a true anti-chop bolt. NOT WDP. (COPS).


They need to carry forward the momentum they have built up over the past 15 years. It just seems as though they are slowing down.........

[cockerkiller68]

I would really like AGD to make some more tourney level gats!! I would have bought one from AGD instead of my DM4...if they could match performance, and be tourney legal. Side note: The X-mag is the most beautiful gat I've ever seen.

More like that, higherhigherhigher

Keep working in the scenerio gig too, just don't drop your innovation and performance.

[REDRT]

The biggest gripe I got is AGD turned their back on tournament players and the lack of resources allocated to the development of equipment in that field.