Is PTP wrong in what they've done regarding a pneumatic trigger?

[bunker17]

That would have been good. But since DW is only like 2 guys in thier garage, they probably couldn't afford the licensing fees, too bad .
But, my opinion is, if you want the trigger pull of an electro, buy an electro!!!
!

Yeah thats why i won three but this would be cool to have 2

[Lohman446]

Wrong.... in several ways....

The tolerances are no secret. The specs are easily measured on an exisiting marker.

The fact is that the Mags design Requires close adherance to certain tolerances. Not that its a secret. The marker has very little room for error and adjustment. If its built right it works. .

Easily to what degree? I mean I can measure to within an inch pretty cheap. I can measure to within a 1/4 inch pretty cheap - but the tolerances are very tight (I don't know how tight) and measuring down to hundredths of an inch, accurately, can get expensive.

[cphilip]

Yes... its in the thousandths.... Take a look at the old PT spacers. Thats the range of adjustment. And how close the tolerances all need to be is within that. After its all assembled they all combined need to be nor more than that range. Pretty dang tight.

[shartley]

Wrong.... in several ways....

The tolerances are no secret. The specs are easily measured on an exisiting marker. No one can keep that a secret. It never has been a secret. Anyone with lick of sense and some patiences can determine what they are. And in the Past Tom has feely given some of the CADs away for others to use if they wish.

The fact is that the Mags design Requires close adherance to certain tolerances. Not that its a secret. The marker has very little room for error and adjustment. If its built right it works. And works for a long long time! So its highly important to build every part within a very narrow spectrum of tolerances. It's the markers "timing" if you will. And many manufacturers do not wish to spend the time and money to build to those tight tolerances. For instance a Cocker can be made badly out of tolerance from one to another. Most of them in fact are. And eventualy with the right rods and such you can tweek all that out of it for the most part and make it shoot. But with the mag, if its badly off, it will just have to be remade. Nothing to adjust outside the small narrow window of shim/PT spacers and on off pin lengths. All those things working together have to match up in a very narrow window. When made correctly, They stay there for a long long time. But in the example of the cocker they keep moving around and wearing down and changing ... so you end up retiming it... over and over again...not so with the Mag. You make it right first and foremost and then leave it alone.

There is no secret kept that keeps anyone from making them. THey can make them. But they have to make them right. And then they have to make them over and over again exactly the same. Not many people can get cheap Chinese importers to do that. So anyone else that wants to do it can but its not realy gonna be done with cheap import parts. Most of those would end up in the scrap metal bin.

[Toxic Dave]

Measuring to the thousandth is not expensive or hard, in fact you can usually get a Mitutoyo Digital Caliper for about a hundred bucks and a micrometer for about the same. Making parts to +/- .001 isn't too hard either if the shop doesn't suck, even in China or Vietnam, Canada, etc.

It would take more than one part of the same type to check tolerances.

dave

[cphilip]

And while some would argue that this makes Mags superior to other markers, I would suggest that it is their Achilles heel.

That is indeed one way to look at it Sam. It can indeed be the achillies heel. But if its right it can be the longivity of the Marker. There is some room for adjustment. Just not as much. The problem is that if its a tad off in one place... and then a tad off in another... and then another tad here and there... it magnifies itself in the end. One part being a Tad off can be managable. All of them off can be unmanagable. In this case the rail, Valve alignment and on off hole as well as its main field strip hole alignment, Grip and sear placement and Sear rod lenght as well as on off pin all add to the places things can be off or spot on. So inherent in the design for consistency is very close control of all of those things. Not as easy to pull off as some other markers can be. So yea... you could say its a liability of the design if you want. But its also its strength as you point out as well. Good analagy really.

And yes Toxic Dave, they can.... for a price. One must pay the price and pass it on to the consumer. And one must be willing to figure out who that shop is...and deal with that shop long distance...and the headaches of mistakes and long range language and potential fraud difficulties. Sometimes that costs a lot in losses trying to get consistency and not get screwed in the process and all that. But it can be done. Most other Markers don't demand it. So they can cheap out easily. As they are not trying to build something thats spot on and therefore bound to last out of the box forever. Most of them build something for short term and assume you will rebuild it all at some point or have abandoned the sport by the time it needs it.

[rabidchihauhau]

slarty,

I wasn't 'heated up' so there's no need to cool down. We're just talking the merits (or not) of the patent system as it relates to the current situation.

You can't have separate applications for each different embodiment of a design (for example, one that uses gas to assist in the return of a trigger and a magnet to assist in the pull, versus one that uses gas to assist in the return and the pull) because the second application would see the first application as 'prior art' and would not make it through the examination process.

There are very fine lines here, and its really a question of agreeing or disagreeing on where those lines actually are. For example, what is your opinion of the validity of the following:

an application for an internal combustion engine "that can utilize one of several different types of combustible fuel supplied in liquid or gaseous form"

versus

an application for an internal combustion engine "that utilizes a selector system to automatically change timing, compression and other related factors so that the engine can operate efficiently on one of several fuels, including but not limited to JP, gasoline, diesel and liquified natural gas".

In my opinion, the two are illustrative of the point you are trying to make. One is a vague reference to the idea of using multiple fuels, while the other has been engineered (and demonstrates so in the drawings and detailed description) to specifically be 'multi-fuel'.

In other words, one is an application in which the inventor is just 'trying to cover the bases', while the other is a useful, unique invention.

I'd submit that the PTP patent is of the latter kind. Everything within the application consists of RELATED embodiments of the basic concept; methods of pneumatically accomplishing the goal, magnetically accomplishing the goal, electro-magnetically accomplishing the goal, mechanical-pneumatic...

NOT just the 'idea' of using 'a means to', but a detailed description of how to go about building one that identifies the UNIQUE engineering issues and shows how to solve them.

[WARPED1]

And the knowledgable Mr. Davidson does it again. Show off!

[Lohman446]

Measuring to the thousandth is not expensive or hard, in fact you can usually get a Mitutoyo Digital Caliper for about a hundred bucks and a micrometer for about the same. Making parts to +/- .001 isn't too hard either if the shop doesn't suck, even in China or Vietnam, Canada, etc.

It would take more than one part of the same type to check tolerances.

dave

Let me rephrase, do you know how expensive it is to measure accureatly to the thousandth. yes I can get a set of calipers and do it, but the accuracy may or may not be to what I need, most have some margin of error in them as will my method of measuring

[Cougar]

I'll just say that it's too bad that it's come to the point where you just can't make a cool toy for you marker without someone saying "wait, you can't do that, we did it first" (which may not technically apply here) instead of "Hey, you're making the game better. Welcome aboard". The days of innocence are gone

It's much different when the person also wants to manufacture the product and sell it to the masses, therefore infringing on PTP's patent and buisness.

[j.storm]

Solution--Wait until PTP makes their final decision on release. If they don't release a Mag version on their product, give...and mean literally give...DW or AGD their blessing to manufacture pneumatic frames for whatever guns they choose not too. THAT would be a neighborly thing to do. Why let a good product sit and collect dust, right?

[shartley]

Solution--Wait until PTP makes their final decision on release. If they don't release a Mag version on their product, give...and mean literally give...DW or AGD their blessing to manufacture pneumatic frames for whatever guns they choose not too. THAT would be a neighborly thing to do. Why let a good product sit and collect dust, right?

[rabidchihauhau]

shartley,

not to mention the legal ramifications of letting one company 'have' the rights, while another is being held up for a licensing fee.

While its true that a patent confers a 'limited monopoly' on the owner, such things as anti-trust, fair business practices and etc., can still come into play.

[shartley]

shartley,

not to mention the legal ramifications of letting one company 'have' the rights, while another is being held up for a licensing fee.

While its true that a patent confers a 'limited monopoly' on the owner, such things as anti-trust, fair business practices and etc., can still come into play.

[rabidchihauhau]

I realize that many (most?) of the people posting here are of an age which would indicate little to no experience with 'the real world', but I would normally expect that to mean no commentary, as opposed to pontificating about what should be done.

But then that's paintball, isn't it?