Is PTP wrong in what they've done regarding a pneumatic trigger?

[shartley]

Yes. To some (too much) extent.

[teufelhunden]

I realize that many (most?) of the people posting here are of an age which would indicate little to no experience with 'the real world', but I would normally expect that to mean no commentary, as opposed to pontificating about what should be done.

But then that's paintball, isn't it?

Damn, I didn't realize you were just a few months younger than my mother


However, you're absolutley correct. I'm a part of that age group, but I like to think that I'm at least a bit removed from their irrational and emotional thinking regarding issues such as this due to my degree-in-progress in business as well as watching my father run a business for however many years; while I've never been involved in a patent battle, the business decisions don't change.

And hell, we're a bunch of kids who have been babied by our parents since before we left the womb and we've been brought up on the internet where everybody cares what we think!


Rabid, I'm sure you probably can't/won't answer this question, but what type of terms was PTP trying to get for a licensing deal? DW indicated that they couldn't afford it; was it a lump sum before any production was allowed? I'd think that they could surely afford any per-frame licensing fee, seeing as everybody *says* they'd pay anything for the hAir and DW hasn't announced a price. But then that goes back to what Jay said about 50 frames not even making his payroll for the week..

[rabidchihauhau]

teufel,

you're right, I can't say anything about the terms that were asked, other than - they were extremely reasonable; There are two types of licensing agreements: those that are designed to make LOTS of money and/or to keep other people out of the marketplace (I can think of one company that engages in that kind of licensing practice and I think they make holy barrels or something) and those that are designed to encourage as many people as possible to license a product.

PTP engages in the latter philosophy. I'd love to put various hints in here - but anything I might say - other than 'read between the lines' - would give away too much info and might piss some folks off.

PS: I'm probably older than your GRANDmother - lol

[Thordic]

Did PTP ever intend on manufacturing this product or are you guys just sitting on the patent till someone pays you to make it?

[teufelhunden]

Thordic, less ignorance on this one. Ever since Jay released his video on AIR back in September, he's been talking about production... Which just so happens to be the same thing DW did.. release a video and then leave you guys hanging for months.

[Thordic]

Yet at the same time its been stated they've been working on this for YEARS.

The concept behind a pneumatic trigger isn't exactly groundbreaking cutting-edge technology. Every post about this I see "It won't be out for a while" and "If you want to license it from us, please let us know".

You add one and one together and you can make an assumption about their intent.

[cledford]

[Lohman446]

"We've got the patent so if you don't want the product and the future of AGD to die on the vine you need to pay us a lot now."
-Calvin

Not discussing the rest of your thread, which would take internal knowledge of AGD's and PTPs present and past financials, research projects, and various other items I'm assuming you have seen the terms that PTP offered in order to make this judgement and statement?

[Thordic]

This is a viable point. PTP could license out Colin or AGD (not for a dollar, but for a fairly cheap rate) to test the market. If Colin or AGD doesn't get very good sales, then PTP can say ok, we'll keep our agreement. If sales soar, then PTP can renegotiate their agreement, or take over production themselves.

It would serve to show whether or not there is a valid Mag market, at little or no loss to them. They could set a fairly short period of time on the agreement (6 months maybe?) or perhaps even a set number of units.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know if this is feasible, but it seems like it might work.

If sales go slowly, a small number of fans stay happy, and a couple people make a little money.

If sales go well, PTP realizes their product has value, and makes more money.

I can understand why Colin wouldn't want to get involved in an agreement like this, but what if PTP licensed their design to AGD perhaps?

Good idea, Cledford.

[Eric Cartman]

Cledford & Thordic both make a good point here. As far as I can see what RRFireblade said here backs it up:

K, here we go:

1) DW is a 1-2 man operation, to them 50 sales is a big deal. (Same goes for Tunaman a RogueFactor BTW) They can and afford to cater directly to AO, in fact AO is they're primary market and possibly only market.They would likely never had existed in thier current form without AO.

To me, 50 sales mean I don't even make payroll that week.

So yeah, limit it to 50 / 100 units and let's see if it flies. If it doesn't - no harm, no foul, if it does, then perhaps this will put DW or AGD in a better finacial position to negotiate a longer license.

[WARPED1]

In the end PTP is making a calculated decision to kill AGD and it is not one that I see from any business (past or present) perspective as a good one.

-Calvin

200% wrong as a fact, but as your opinion you're entitled to think it.

[SlartyBartFast]

PTP could license out Colin or AGD (not for a dollar, but for a fairly cheap rate) to test the market.

And THAT is where the business arguments don't hold water. PTP could indeed give away the liscence to AGD or DW if they so choose. Or simply say X$ per frame sold.

Any agreement would be completely confidential and not open to public scrutiney. So to say that being cheep with one manufacturer would jepordize the patent with others is completely bogus.

Noone knows the details of any of the deals SP made with the vaious manufacturers and distributers. FOr all we know some of those may have indeed been for a "dollar".

It's a simple fact they MUST be either wanting some giant lump sum payment or want some other extortionate amount upfront. Otherwise, it makes little sense that DW or AGD couldn't come to an agreemet with them.

[WARPED1]

And THAT is where the business arguments don't hold water. PTP could indeed give away the liscence to AGD or DW if they so choose. Or simply say X$ per frame sold.

Any agreement would be completely confidential and not open to public scrutiney. So to say that being cheep with one manufacturer would jepordize the patent with others is completely bogus.

Noone knows the details of any of the deals SP made with the vaious manufacturers and distributers. FOr all we know some of those may have indeed been for a "dollar".

It's a simple fact they MUST be either wanting some giant lump sum payment or want some other extortionate amount upfront. Otherwise, it makes little sense that DW or AGD couldn't come to an agreemet with them.

No. The patent office checks on these things I believe, to make sure fair and balanced business practices are being used. Places get patents and offer lisencing to make money. That's business, if you don't like it, move to China.

[SlartyBartFast]

No. The patent office checks on these things I believe, to make sure fair and balanced business practices are being used.

As far as I understand it, once the patent office issues the patent they have NO involvement unless someone contests the patent. Even then they only look at the patentability.

Infringement and liscencing disputes are resolved through the courts.

If it's otherwise, please point me to the correct documetation.

[WARPED1]

As far as I understand it, once the patent office issues the patent they have NO involvement unless someone contests the patent. Even then they only look at the patentability.

Infringement and liscencing disputes are resolved through the courts.

If it's otherwise, please point me to the correct documetation.

See, my statement of "I believe" meant I wasn't positive, only assuming! :)