Is PTP wrong in what they've done regarding a pneumatic trigger?

[rabidchihauhau]

slarty,

the patent is a 'limited' monopoly.

Courts have ruled that while a patent holder is allowed to license one person and not another, or charge one fee to one and another to another, those agreements are still subject to other business law. Within the context of case law for what is allowed and what isn't allowed, standard 'fair' business practices still apply.

For example; You can license A for a dollar a unit and 15% of gross sales and B for ten dollars a unit and no sales % and C for five thousand a year and no royalty payments and, so long as those are reasonably fair for the market place, you're ok. You can grant an exclusive, and you're ok. You can't weild it in such a manner as to establish a monopoly or gain unfair advantange - all of which is determined on a complicated, case by case basis.

[nippinout]

They are blind the the great potential here. There could very well be a pneuMag explosion, but PTP doesn't have the balls to lead the way. They don't think the market is there. They want us, the mag owners to buy more mags. How about this, CREATE the demand. PTP is using circular reasoning to satisfy your excuses for inaction.

[Thordic]

Yes but DW / AGD could be granted a limited license for mags only and it wouldn't have any legal problems as long as it was an exclusive license.

[SlartyBartFast]

Courts have ruled that while a patent holder is allowed to license one person and not another, or charge one fee to one and another to another, those agreements are still subject to other business law. Within the context of case law for what is allowed and what isn't allowed, standard 'fair' business practices still apply.

So how's another company to know? Nobody can know except the two contracted parties.

Certainly nobody but SP and their partners know what the liscencing for the 'electro' patent involves.

http://www.zeromillion.com/entrepreneurship/patent-licensing.html

It seems the only time equal treatment of licensees becomes an issue is with exclusive patents.

Can you point me to a single piece of case law that shows that it wouldn't be possible to liscence for nothing with only royalty payments per items sold?

Otherwise it all just sounds like a way to make a leagal excuse as a bargaining tool. (Honestly, we're not being greedy, we don't want to have to give it away to others. )

[shartley]

[SlartyBartFast]

I think it's a case of who wants to take the risk.

Seems for such a low volume item, there's shared risk that needs to be taken. But not knowing the specifics of the demand or the offer no-one can judge greed or fairness.

Seeing as AGD is the only one to have expressed intrest and as much as publically committed themselves to production until "patent" issues entered the picture, in this case it's difficult to see anything other than patent siting profiteering going on.

Unless AGD production was more than a year away and PTP was certain of producing the item. But have they even demonstrated a Mag product themselves? I'm still more incredulous with the patent system than PTP's behaviour. Look at how I voted for cripes sake. But how a device for firing cockers and a device for firing mags could be close enough design wise to qualify for one patent is beyond me.

Still waiting for a link to the patent please. Or any other link beside the "I know what I'm talking about, truct me" talk.

But, PTP seems so non-committal as to be admitting they have no plans of manufacturing it for Mags. If they haven't demonstrated a product specifically for Mags, ANY money they might make from a limited agreement Mag-only liscence would be better than their current prospects.

[Muzikman]

Still waiting for a link to the patent please. Or any other link beside the "I know what I'm talking about, truct me" talk.

If you ask enough, one of us might actually go and look:)

Here ya go:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=7&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=paintball&OS=paintball&RS=paintball

[SlartyBartFast]

A mechanical, pneumatic, magnetic and/or electronic method for assisting the user operation of a trigger and/or actively and rapidly returning the trigger mechanism to its firing position at the completion of a firing sequence in a paintball gun. The trigger assistance mechanism reduces the amount of force required by the user to move the trigger to begin the firing sequence. After the firing sequence has been completed, the trigger assistance mechanism provides assistance to the trigger to move it to its pre-firing resting position. Alternatively, the trigger assistance mechanism replaces the mechanical linkage between the trigger and the cocking/firing mechanism of the paintball gun such that a pneumatic actuating ram is used to initiate the cocking/firing sequence.

That's even worse than the all encompassing crap that was granted to SP (and partially struckdown).

Any and every trigger assist device is covered by that verbage.

It's broad enough in its claims to try and claim the RT effect in the XValve and the magnetic trigger from the Emag.

Claim 11 "the assistance mechanism comprising a force element positioned behind the trigger" could try and claim a trigger spring is covered it's so broad.

But is that really it? That patent is focused on an electronic method. Not a fully pneumatic one.

I'd say just produce the hAir if that's the patent they'd have to fight.

But, I can't see the images on this computer...

[Muzikman]

I only assume that is it as it's file date was 2001 and granted in 2004 and everyone keeps talking about how long it took to get the patent.

[SlartyBartFast]

I only assume that is it as it's file date was 2001 and granted in 2004 and everyone keeps talking about how long it took to get the patent.

Come-on then Rabid. Post the link.

Or, behind all the posturing defending patent language and the process, are you too embarrassed to have to defend the actual wording of the patent in question?

[spantol]

A little hearsay never hurt anybody, right?

I've heard (on the Guild, IIRC), and I'm sure someone will be around to correct me shortly, that that's really only half of what was intended to be patented. The USPTO deemed the original application too broad for one patent, so only the first half was granted. An application for the second half, the one that really covers the hAir stuff, is pending, and has retained the original priority date.

Edit: Here's a link to that post...

[WARPED1]

I think it's a case of who wants to take the risk.

Seems for such a low volume item, there's shared risk that needs to be taken. But not knowing the specifics of the demand or the offer no-one can judge greed or fairness.

Seeing as AGD is the only one to have expressed intrest and as much as publically committed themselves to production until "patent" issues entered the picture, in this case it's difficult to see anything other than patent siting profiteering going on.

Unless AGD production was more than a year away and PTP was certain of producing the item. But have they even demonstrated a Mag product themselves? I'm still more incredulous with the patent system than PTP's behaviour. Look at how I voted for cripes sake. But how a device for firing cockers and a device for firing mags could be close enough design wise to qualify for one patent is beyond me.

Still waiting for a link to the patent please. Or any other link beside the "I know what I'm talking about, truct me" talk.

But, PTP seems so non-committal as to be admitting they have no plans of manufacturing it for Mags. If they haven't demonstrated a product specifically for Mags, ANY money they might make from a limited agreement Mag-only liscence would be better than their current prospects.

For the love of God and all thats holy, Slarty, stop the whining! PTP has said they will make one for mags if economicaly feasible! The few thousand on AO who want one, is not a big enough market share though...........

[Muzikman]

For the love of God and all thats holy, Slarty, stop the whining! PTP has said they will make one for mags if economicaly feasible! The few thousand on AO who want one, is not a big enough market share though...........

After reading that patent (if that is the correct one), I don't think that is the issue right now. Now I see why Colin said that they (DW) do not beleive that the hAir infringes on the PTP patent. So if that is really the case, it's a matter of threat of legal action knowing that DW doesn't have the money to go to court. To me, this sounds like SP all over again.

[nippinout]

After reading that patent (if that is the correct one), I don't think that is the issue right now. Now I see why Colin said that they (DW) do not beleive that the hAir infringes on the PTP patent. So if that is really the case, it's a matter of threat of legal action knowing that DW doesn't have the money to go to court. To me, this sounds like SP all over again.

The threat of a lawsuit with the goal to burn money in hopes that the other company caves financially is one of the most disgusting business practices.

[Muzikman]

The threat of a lawsuit with the goal to burn money in hopes that the other company caves financially is one of the most disgusting business practices.

And it happens every day.