So, I turned off ramping today

[onedude36]

Ok, everyone start pointing fingers and get offended all at once!

The new AO is great.

[REDRT]

My question to you: might ramping negatively influence your game?

I find myself holding back because I don't want to inadvertantly want to over shoot someone. With the old 3.2 I would shoot as fast is I could because everything seemed to shoot faster. Now I'm just as fast/faster and I hold back. I think I get shot more now because I might hold back too much.

[Beemer]

The point of this thread has gotten way off base. Maybe its because you (Lohman) keep asking dumb questions like "is ramping good or bad, discuss" or "does shooting semi improve your game or not?" or "why have we accepted cheating" or "insert any other improbable question here"

Ha Ha, you're kidding right? There is no such thing as a dumb question. If you dont like what he posts why do you read and post then? He does ask some good questions in my opinion and is able to post with class and style and with out being RUDE from what I have read. Wish I could say the same about you. Are you the new and future AO?

Your rhetoric is getting annoying. You think about things too much. "Im sick of your philosophy" Stop the bickering and the questions that have no answer please.

Well gee I think to much too Is that a bad thing?

Dont be sick, try and understand..........

Sounds bad to me too. That guy Hume earned the Nobel Peace Prize.

Just because you dont see or know the answer does not mean it is not there or does not exist.

I mean you are asking why we accept cheating, yet in the same thread you state that youve blatantly commited cheating acts. Like playing through, sliding in a way to wipe a shot, and bonus balling. How can you help find a solution to a problem when you are contributing to it.

Well he got ya on that one. Part of the problem or the solution? aint this great

Sorry for the Jack, Lohman but I had to. Hey how ya like my sig?

Whats that?

I.A.D.S.P.B.P = I'm A Dumb S... Paint Ball Player

The new AO is great

What do you mean? Its the sameo sameo, whats new about it?

__________________________________________________ _______________________

[tyrion2323]

I suppose the best solution to a thread that you dislike is to simply leave the thread. If you don't like the questions being asked, you can simply click the BACK button. Asking questions isn't wrong, especially since Lohman doesn't ask them to incite arguments.

[Lohman446]

Beemer. I said PROOF that it is unsafe. Not a thread bout the rule being instated. *scratches head* ummmm...okay.

Before we change the rules that allow someone to shoot a projectile at me I would like to hope the that we had done some scientific research to prove it was safe. Not "we think its safe". Its like testing a shark bite suit - "here put this on"

I can do it. I dont lie, and I dont appreciate you belittling my claim. I would put up a video if I could. I dont really know how, but I will try.

I don't think you lie, I think you are honestly mistaken, the same as 99% of players out there. And remember it was you who preached how easy it was to do.

The point of this thread has gotten way off base. Maybe its because you (Lohman) keep asking dumb questions like "is ramping good or bad, discuss" or "does shooting semi improve your game or not?" or "why have we accepted cheating" or "insert any other improbable question here"

Your rhetoric is getting annoying. You think about things too much. Ill tell you like Ive told my friend that reminds me of you. "Im sick of your philosophy" If you dont know why you are doing things you do, dont play paintball. Leave this sport. Stop the bickering and the questions that have no answer please.

I don't even know how to respond to that. I'm sorry I don't just drool over the newest marker by anyone... the fact is I can't discuss much on the new technology of anything because they just are not out there, as such I post thoughts for discussion. If you don't feel like reading them, or responding to them, don't. If my contribution is of so little value to you, then use the ignore feature. Pretty simple really. I like my questions, people who never question anything, seldom learn. I'd like to think I am open to learning, to discussion, and less likely to be a "just because" type of person. I expect you would have really disliked my thread about the complexities of technology and politics that brought th stapler into existence as we know it now.

I mean you are asking why we accept cheating, yet in the same thread you state that youve blatantly commited cheating acts. Like playing through, sliding in a way to wipe a shot, and bonus balling. How can you help find a solution to a problem when you are contributing to it.

Are you saying because I have cheated I am of no value to finding the solution? Who can tell you why people cheat accurately? The people who have never cheated... no, you can tell me why you shouldn't cheat, but not why people cheat, what possesses them to. Sure, it indicates that I do sometimes do things I should not do. Want me to be like a lot of other people Want me to hide the fact. The point is that the thread was, to me, making a line to simply bashing cheaters. While I think this might ultimately be one of the solutions (though I don't recall asking for solutions, I did ask why noone cared) I did not want the thread to progress and have others feel I was trying to be "better" than them. I'm not.

Play or shut up. Thats my motto.

How about I play (which I do at least every week) and continue to discuss. I guess I could always shut up, and stick my head in the sand, and ignore the world around me. Its just not me.

[yakitori]

ok then lohman, be annoying then. Discuss what you want. Its not my username that ppl will associate w/ the rhetorical questions.

And Beemer. Learn to read. I wasnt even talking to you about philosophy. You have none, so please. You havent said anything intelligent yet, that would be Lohman.

Im just saying that its kinda kindergarten to ask questions w/ no answers. You can be kindergarten if you want. Once again Beemer not for you. I guess I have to put that every time so you will know who I am talking to since you can infer it from reading through posts.

And BEEMER, I have been shot w/ 15 balls. AND it was w/ a tippmann a5 semi that didnt ramp. All I got was some welts that went away in a week or less. That depends on how broad you define safe. I see ppl where I live flying past ppl on the shoulder during rush hour. I think ramping is safer than that. I see ppl riding wheelies at 70+mph on street bikes in fairly busy traffic. Ramping is safer than that.

Ive seen stories of ppl getting shot in the eye etc, but thats a mask safety issue. Ive seen stories about a tank cylinder coming unscrewed and killing a woman by hitting her in the head. I think ramping is safter than that.

SO, my question for you is......Can someone shoot you w/ 10-15 balls w/ a mech semi, or how about a pump? If yes, then your definition of safe is very narrow because you are biased toward ramping. Of course there is a risk involved when playing paintball, but they are nonlethal projectiles. If you are chronographed right, there should be no REAL danger in getting hit w/ 10-15 balls.

You have still yet to show a real story of and EXAMPLE of how someone has been severly injured as a result of ramping. Im not reading your goofy link that has a post about 30 down about someones opinion. I meant something factual, concrete, that lead to REAL injuries as a DIRECT result of ramping. AND BEEMER, youve failed to do that.

[Lohman446]

ok then lohman, be annoying then. Discuss what you want. Its not my username that ppl will associate w/ the rhetorical questions.

And Beemer. Learn to read. I wasnt even talking to you about philosophy. You have none, so please. You havent said anything intelligent yet, that would be Lohman.

Speaking of learning to read...

rhetorical question
n.
A question to which no answer is expected, often used for rhetorical effect.

I expect answers. Do I expect them to be end all be all answers? Not at all. But I don't post these only for people to look at and go... oh. I post them for people to look at and discuss. If people associate considered questions, considered arguments to my screen name - I don't see where thats a bad thing. If we don't discuss things, what is the purpose of the boards? To show off our newest marker. This board is meant for discussion, and if one is to consider its "image" I would think this type of discussion fits right in.

I'll let Beemer discuss with you the importance of scientific safety standards, and the ASTM. The argument is not that it is unsafe, the argument is that there is no scientific evidence that indicates it IS safe. If we are violating ASTM standards with no evidence that it is safe we put ourselves in danger of civil liability issues. I also beleive there is a strong argument that we are criminally negiligent (search it, there is a thread floating around here discussing that thought). I would like to think we are smarter and less short sighted than it appears we are - and I do mean we, I have done stupid things paintball related. Ohh.. I guess that makes my opinion worth less because I admitted it. I'd like to tell you all I'm perfect, that I never look back and say "that was stupid". I often do, I try to look forward though, and do this as little as possible. I try to discuss and understand why people do things, so that I may have a better idea in my mind, and form stronger ideas because I consider multiple viewpoints. Thats why I make threads like this.

I value Beemers opinion, along with many many others on this board - they are generally well considered, and backed by logic and morals. Are they different then mine? Very often, but that does not make them wrong.

[yakitori]

Speaking of learning to read...



I expect answers. Do I expect them to be end all be all answers? Not at all. But I don't post these only for people to look at and go... oh. I post them for people to look at and discuss. If people associate considered questions, considered arguments to my screen name - I don't see where thats a bad thing. If we don't discuss things, what is the purpose of the boards? To show off our newest marker. This board is meant for discussion, and if one is to consider its "image" I would think this type of discussion fits right in.

I'll let Beemer discuss with you the importance of scientific safety standards, and the ASTM. The argument is not that it is unsafe, the argument is that there is no scientific evidence that indicates it IS safe. If we are violating ASTM standards with no evidence that it is safe we put ourselves in danger of civil liability issues. I also beleive there is a strong argument that we are criminally negiligent (search it, there is a thread floating around here discussing that thought). I would like to think we are smarter and less short sighted than it appears we are - and I do mean we, I have done stupid things paintball related. Ohh.. I guess that makes my opinion worth less because I admitted it. I'd like to tell you all I'm perfect, that I never look back and say "that was stupid". I often do, I try to look forward though, and do this as little as possible. I try to discuss and understand why people do things, so that I may have a better idea in my mind, and form stronger ideas because I consider multiple viewpoints. Thats why I make threads like this.

I value Beemers opinion, along with many many others on this board - they are generally well considered, and backed by logic and morals. Are they different then mine? Very often, but that does not make them wrong.

ya but lohman, you are failing to recognize that is what MOST ppl do w/ your questions. Look at them and go "oh"...then on to another thread. The avg person would think it is rhetorical, and yes I know what it means or else I wouldnt have used it.

As for the ASTM, there is no scientific study to show that it is UNSAFE either. Hell, paintball isnt safe if you want to get scientific about it. Ever been bunkered in the throat? I have. Do I wear a neck protector afterward, no. Thats the risk ppl take when they decide to play. Its like swimming w/o a lifegaurd. You assume the risk of your own actions.

Im done arguing. We just have to agree to disagree. Its all good. I still like you guys, except beemer. j/k. We are all AOers and actaully have good discussions. That is why I say rhetorical because an argument can always be debated. That is because it all boils down to opinion. And nobody can provide a final correct answer. It will only be diagreed w/.

[tyrion2323]

If we only ever ask questions that we know the answers to, then we'll never progress intellectually. That IS a fact.

[yakitori]

I suppose the best solution to a thread that you dislike is to simply leave the thread. If you don't like the questions being asked, you can simply click the BACK button. Asking questions isn't wrong, especially since Lohman doesn't ask them to incite arguments.

I beleive that the questions are asked to incite argument. That is how ppl give their point of view. What makes it an argument is that some others have a different point of view. Its not fighting, its insightful debate. I can click the back button, but Ive stated my opinioin only to be disputed by a few. To back out would be giving in to a point of view that holds water just as mine does.

The questions asked have no answers, only opinions of others. Thats why there is no answers. Think about it, youll get it.

[Lohman446]

In my opinion, if we all agreed the world woudl be rather boring....

[trains are bad]

Back on topic, there is 'something' to the claim that faster ROFs reduce your accuracy or efficiency as a player. I'm not just talking ramping vs 'legal' but even mech vs. electro.

I played at the Big Game at splatterpark most of the day with me E-Y-mag. I chewed through a whole lot of paint and got a lot of players out that thought they were out of range of your typical tippmann. A nice 15bps rain convinced them they were not out of range of a fast marker and guy who knows how to use it.

However I switched to cocker mode later in the day and I swear I was being more accurate. I could kneejerk and say my cocker is more accurate but I really think it's just that I was paying more attention to shot placement. Of course what you really want to do is pay attention to shot placement AND shoot fast.

It's something that you want to be careful to emphasize when you train. Lots of people practice walking thier triggers all the time, but when they go to the feild are they concentrating on playing effectively or watching mesmerized at thier stream of paint, sticking thier tounge out trying to shoot fast? I've noticed this playing against (inexperienced) teams with fast markers, even back when we had slower ones. The other team was shooting fast but it was really nothing to worry about. Let them shoot fast, it makes them reload more often, and if they are pounding away at a bunker then they are not shooting at you. Meanwhile we were concentrating fully on playing a game of paintball and cleaning up.

Whatever marker you shoot with, it should be an extension of your body, and if you can't shoot fast without being distracted in the process, then shooting that fast is not going to be an advantage, because you should be focusing on WHERE to shoot and WHO to shoot. I see people propping thier electros to their shoulders by the front grip, daintily tickling the trigger. How can they move fast and violently like that? Can they really hold thier marker's as steady and switch targets and sides, and react as fast as they could if they, well, just held onto the damn thing and shot it?

When I had my mech mag set up where I could walk it with the ULT, I ended up going back to the RT on off. Because it was just as fast when you were simply pulling the trigger, and in order to walk it I had to reduce my control of the marker by liberating my shooting hand.

When I played speedball with my mag back when it was mechanical, I was totally comfortable with it, it wasn't in my mind, I just saw paint fly out and hit people. Now that it is a fire breathing beast I have to be careful that I am not out there shooting fast for fast shooting's sake, and instead trying to shoot people and move where I need to be. Just because you can shoot at 15bps doesn't mean that it is appropriate to do so when doing so takes a milisecond more time or concentration that should be applied elsewhere.

And IMO 10bps is a typical legal average player trigger walking speed. Nobody can shoot 15+bps consistently.

[bound for glory]

hey yak! what planet do you live on where you "think" you can pull 15 sustain? i want to go there let me tell you something. my devilmag(not that i'm bragging) has ramping. watch the promo vid. do i need it? i don't use it because it''s not worth it. who in the world do you think you're impressing with your bs about bps? ok, you got a viking. i got a devilmag. both shot very fast. but really, please stop sniffing glue. it may hurt you hey lohman, before this young man flames me, why don't i match that 20 spot about the bps vid. hell, i'll throw in 50. i'm an adult, i work. i can do that

[tyrion2323]

I beleive that the questions are asked to incite argument. That is how ppl give their point of view. What makes it an argument is that some others have a different point of view. Its not fighting, its insightful debate. I can click the back button, but Ive stated my opinioin only to be disputed by a few. To back out would be giving in to a point of view that holds water just as mine does.

The questions asked have no answers, only opinions of others. Thats why there is no answers. Think about it, youll get it.

Well, no need to bring this down on me....I'm perfectly capable of "getting it," and I'm a bit insulted that you infer otherwise.

I see a big difference between stimulating discussion (which is used for progress, debate and exchange of ideas) and argument (which is marked by flaming and general immaturity). Those are my definitions, and by those definitions, I am comfortable saying that Lohman isn't trying to incite argument. Discussion, perhaps...but that's not a bad thing.

Not all questions can have definite answers. There are many questions worth discussing which don't have definite answers...Political, Religious, Moral, etc. Lots of things need to be discussed. No single answer to any of these questions is ever completely correct. Lohman asked a simple question - is it possible that Ramping can negatively influence your game? Some have said "yes," while others say "no." There isn't a global answer, just personal experiences and generalizations.

[Lohman446]

I did start the thread for discussion, I enjoy mature, logical discussion, and it is a credit to AO, its members, and its administration that AO is one of the best places involving paintball for this.

I am truly curious, when ramping first came out, and was just an idea (even when I was using it on my Shockers) I could only see how it would help. After taking the winter off, most of the way at least, I came back with ramping and it seemed to effect my whole style of play, and my effectivness as a player. I'm curious how many people think that ramping (there own, not someone else shooting at you) might be open to the idea that it would prove to negatively impact there game performance (I went back and added the word performance, I really wasn't getting deep into the idea of safety or morals - which are very valid points in other discussions). From personal experience it has influenced my performance negatively. I don't know if it will influence others, and I'm curious if anyone thinks it already does, or will if they use it.