My point of view on cheating.

[yakitori]

This allows lateral movement to the closest bunker, but not towards an opponent before checking. Now we can try to make the rule more grey by picking at it, or we can just admit that our behavior is very grey. Is the rule good? No I do not like it at all and it should be changed to be more in line with what actually happens and what is allowed. But do we ignore it when we play - yes we do.

That was my point. Lateral movement is not defined. and the "stop your acceleration "toward" the opposition" is too broad.

[MarkM]

There is a grey area. But it's not about whether cheating is bad or not. It the difference between cheating and an infraction for breaking a rule.

Like Yaki's position on overshooting. A couple of extra hits for insurance, may or may not be an infraction. Deliberately seeking retribution, or deliberately wiping are both cheating. One begets the other.

THe other contentious area is how to determine levels of infraction and how to determine deliberate versus unintentional/heat of the momnet affairs.

Thanks slarty. That was what I was trying to say. I dont think mark understood the differnce between overshooting and making sure a couple shots get there for assurance. I guess maybe I wasnt being all that clear about my point. But, you hit the nail on the head. Thats what I was referring to.

And yes. There is a difference between infringing on a rule and cheating. For example. I was in the snake last weekend. I shot a guy in the elbow who was at my mirror in the other end of the snake. He wiped, the ref checked him and called him clean. Meanwhile I jump over the frontside of the snake, and run toward his place. He is trying to peak back out the backside of the snake down the tape. Meanwhile Im coming up on the frontside of the snake and I stabbed him over a small juicebox in his section of the snake. I kinda slipped when I did, and I leaned over the bunker a bit much and moved the juicebox slightly. According to the rule, I am not supposed to move the bunker, but did I cheat? IMO no. To mean cheating is more of a conscious effort to blatantly break a rule to gain yourself an advantage.

As for getting to the bunker you are going to before checking for hits. Its fine. Sliding in a manner to remove a hit is closer to cheating. If for instance you are running to the snake, you take one in the chest, and slide head first to remove it conciously. Thats cheating. If you are running and get hit on the way in the back of the leg or the side of the mask, and slide headfirst to give yourself cover before checking. Then upon your finding the break on your mask calling yourself out, Thats not cheating.

so, there are non cheating ways to get to your bunker before checking for hits. What if it bounced? Are you supposed to stop out in the open and call time out and check for a hit in the open? no. You always get behind cover before checking for a hit. If you dont, ppl will have no mercy on you cause you stopped to check for a possible bounce. Doing that will get you lit up and eliminated for certain. There is a difference between the two.

I perfectly understand the difference between overshooting and just plain hit...often it is a judgement call as to the time it has taken...a single shot can be overshooting if a time delay has taken place and the player has clearly indicated that they are out...harsh but accurate.
If you actually re-read Slartybartfast's reply it doesn't read as he is defending you he is answering Army's post. (slartybartfast if I misunderstood your post then please say so)
If you deliberately shoot at a player extra shots (extra being any shots after you see a break) then you are overshooting as if you have seen the breaks you know they are out...no excuse of "oh my finger slipped etc etc" can be used...this is one of the major complaints about ramping and run through muggings.
So if you deliberately continue to shoot at a player knowing them to be out you are breaking the rules...ie cheating,
In America as you are that would be assault as even though you walk onto a field expecting to get hit, you play the game with the understanding that once you are hit you will not be hit again until the next game...now that is a real grey area but TECHNICALLY accurate.

[Lohman446]

IT does tell you exactly what to do when you are hit.. stop motion towards the other team and check.. it does not say anything about allowing you to the closest bunker just because noone does that does not make it any less clear in what it means. Not following a rule... if its a bad one, is that cheating?

[yakitori]

I perfectly understand the difference between overshooting and just plain hit...often it is a judgement call as to the time it has taken...a single shot can be overshooting if a time delay has taken place and the player has clearly indicated that they are out...harsh but accurate.
If you actually re-read Slartybartfast's reply it doesn't read as he is defending you he is answering Army's post. (slartybartfast if I misunderstood your post then please say so)
If you deliberately shoot at a player extra shots (extra being any shots after you see a break) then you are overshooting as if you have seen the breaks you know they are out...no excuse of "oh my finger slipped etc etc" can be used...this is one of the major complaints about ramping and run through muggings.
So if you deliberately continue to shoot at a player knowing them to be out you are breaking the rules...ie cheating,
In America as you are that would be assault as even though you walk onto a field expecting to get hit, you play the game with the understanding that once you are hit you will not be hit again until the next game...now that is a real grey area but TECHNICALLY accurate.

do you guys shoot 2bps in england? cause at 10bps or so , its not easy to keep more than one ball from breaking on ppl. As for tourney rules and players, most know that. PPl dont complain about 3-4 balls on them. But when they have signalled they are out, and THEN you put 4-5 more on them. Or even 1 more on them. They get upset.

[yakitori]

IT does tell you exactly what to do when you are hit.. stop motion towards the other team and check.. it does not say anything about allowing you to the closest bunker just because noone does that does not make it any less clear in what it means. Not following a rule... if its a bad one, is that cheating?

I agree with you. Im not disputing what you are saying, Im agreeing with it. The rule does say stop your advancement toward the opposition. As you described lateral movement being against the rule or not being against the rule. I guess I should revise my statement to the nearest bunker lateral to you. .

[Kevmaster]

That was my point. Lateral movement is not defined. and the "stop your acceleration "toward" the opposition" is too broad.

hardly. lateral movement means horizontal movement on the field

towards your opponent is towards thme...horizontal or backwards...not forward.

i think thas pretty clear


Thor, Loh...you guys may be right. the sliding and not looking may be lesser degrees of cheating than wiping, but they are still cheating. the rules specifically prohibit these actions. people ignore/break the rules because they think they can get ahead by doing it. the punishment for wiping is also greater than for either of these (assuming that a ref ever calls you on one of these).

[SlartyBartFast]

or we can just admit that our behavior is very grey.

No. Our behaviour is very clearly BLACK. The rule and its enforcement are grey.

The rule says STOP. It makes no allowance for lateral movement.

Much the same as waiting for a ref to call an elimination is clearly playing on as the responsibility for checking lies first with the player, second with a team mate, and by the rules, only in the case of dispute with the ref.

Sure, it's not the way the game is palyed, but it is what the rules say.

[SlartyBartFast]

(assuming that a ref ever calls you on one of these).

And that's the rub (or is it the wipe?).

Enforcement and officiating SUCK. The games are run by and for those who want to sell the most equipment and/or paint.

[yakitori]

hardly. lateral movement means horizontal movement on the field

towards your opponent is towards thme...horizontal or backwards...not forward.

i think thas pretty clear

I know what lateral means. But the rulebook doesnt say "lateral movement" that was my point of the rulebook not defining lateral movement. It says stop advancing toward them. Backward or sideways is acceptable? It also says stop, but doesnt say stop w/in 2 steps, or out in the open. Thats why I am saying that is it too broad. So, according to the rulebook, I could move sideways, horizontally away from, or backward after an verifiable hit, and then "stop" 10 steps, 20 ft., 2 ft, 1 bunker...etc. etc. away to check for a break?

That is too broad of a definition.

[Lohman446]

No. Our behaviour is very clearly BLACK. The rule and its enforcement are grey.

The rule says STOP. It makes no allowance for lateral movement.

Much the same as waiting for a ref to call an elimination is clearly playing on as the responsibility for checking lies first with the player, second with a team mate, and by the rules, only in the case of dispute with the ref.

Sure, it's not the way the game is palyed, but it is what the rules say.

True.. it is very clearly against the rules. The first PSP tournament I went to, after reading those rules, I thought how much it would change my game, because these rules had no grey area. Guess what... your right, the enforcement to the rules sucked. There are a good many of us who have cheated... a good share of people who have cheated just refuse to admit it, hide behind some justification, etc. If you can justify not following that rule how can you complain when someone justifies wiping? Isn't cheating kinda like being dead, its hard to do just a little.. either you cheat or you don't. It seems that a lot of people, perhaps the majority cheat. PS - I'm not trying to defend wiping either, its wrong, but so is the way a lot of us play, at least according to the rules as written.

[Lohman446]

I know what lateral means. But the rulebook doesnt say "lateral movement" that was my point of the rulebook not defining lateral movement. It says stop advancing toward them. Backward or sideways is acceptable? It also says stop, but doesnt say stop w/in 2 steps, or out in the open. Thats why I am saying that is it too broad. So, according to the rulebook, I could move sideways, horizontally away from, or backward after an verifiable hit, and then "stop" 10 steps, 20 ft., 2 ft, 1 bunker...etc. etc. away to check for a break?

That is too broad of a definition.

The rules get clearer Yak.. I have a copy at home and will read them, but you are going to find they are pretty clear about the immediacy of checking for a hit when discussing them in other places.

[yakitori]

I think that when ppl discuss whether they are a cheater or not is by using reasoning for it. NOt by nit picking and saying. "oh well, I shot someon twice, I AM a cheater"

[yakitori]

well it sucks calling yourself out only to find that it bounced and you couldve still been in play even when a ref verified it. But I guess according to the rulebook, you would be out on a bounce, and would NOT be a cheater.

[Lohman446]

I think that when ppl discuss whether they are a cheater or not is by using reasoning for it. NOt by nit picking and saying. "oh well, I shot someon twice, I AM a cheater"

What about the examples we were discussing Yak... not overshooting but sliding before checking for hits. Don't change it back to overshooting, which we are not addressing. The rule here is clear, very much so, and a very large number of us are in violation. Does that make us no-good SOB cheaters?

[yakitori]

What about the examples we were discussing Yak... not overshooting but sliding before checking for hits. Don't change it back to overshooting, which we are not addressing. The rule here is clear, very much so, and a very large number of us are in violation. Does that make us no-good SOB cheaters?

I wasnt trying to change it back. I was just trying to show a point that when cheating is do difficult NOT to do ( ie shooting 2 times, sliding, lateral movement, etc) ppl dont consider themselves cheaters within a reasonable realm. If you called everyone a cheater that has shot someone twice and both broke, then to me, thats not right.

And I dont beleive that some scenarios w/in reason are cheating. Of course you can get down to the nitty gritty and "find" a way that someone has broken a rule and classify them as a cheater, but MOST ppl dont define a cheater by some of the rules listed. Thats what makes cheating so gray.

So, are you a "cheater" for having excessive stickers on your loader? Its in the rulebook.

Hell then, the way you put it, I am a no-good SOB cheater. But I still have good sportsmanship.