Hammerhead barrels, and their lies!

[SlartyBartFast]

but again IMHO, it does put a spin on the ball that a smooth bore barrel does not, like an armson..

Then sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

TK tested spinning PBs. It did absolutely NOTHING for accuracy. and that was at thousands of RPM.

Not only have all barrel companies failed to show that they impart any spin what-so-ever, let alone a consistent one, the rifling and lengths would impart a negligeable spin even if one was imparted.

[RRfireblade]

I'll just jump in here real quick and say Armson Rifled Barrels do not create spin nor are they intended too.

Back to your regularly schedule broadcast.

[PumpPlayer]

No offense here, but those archived threads not particularly relevant to the discussion nor is it short enough that anyone could have a hope of reading it in a timely manner.

I've shot hammerheads, I've seen them shot and I've talked with the reps and one of the company owners. From my experience, they were all stand-up people that were simply trying to sell their products. Yes, there's some exaggeration going on, but they are trying to make money and from my experience, they do not do so unethically. I wish I could say the same about all paintball product manufacturers.

On the science side of things, the fin length as well as the ported length is the same for both the 8" and 12" versions of the hammerhead. The extra 4" is all rifling. If spin on the ball breaks down the boundary layer and decreases friction and the length of rifled barrel increases the spin, then a longer barrel WOULD result in a further flight. Question here - did the rep say, "A 12" barrel shoots further than an 8" barrel." or did he say, "OUR 12" barrel shoots further than OUR 8" barrel."? Clearly there's a big difference between the two statements. Regardless, you are a jerk for interrupting someone on their turf talking about their product. Personally I think he let you off easy.

Lastly - to all you flatline/Z-body people. It only works above about 25k rpm. Any less than that it actually hurts. Why? There is an "anti-magnus effect" so to speak. The ball actually moves away from the "fast" side in order to seek the path of least resistance. Until the magnus effect overcomes the additional friction on the "fast" side - backspin actually hurts. Backspin at low rpm pushes the ball down because it "pulls" the air over top of it. In fact, topspin at low rpm (say about 10k) causes the balls to "climb" the air. (Think of spin in ping-pong) Only when you break the barrier at about 25k rpm does backspin have a desirable effect. Obviously, the flatline does work and so does the z-body. But if you'll notice - they don't work below a certain velocity (obviously since it's friction-induced spin, higher velocity equates to higher rate of spin). Spin of less than 3k rpm does almost nothing to a pantball no matter how it is applied. Rifled barrels even with no slip, the twist is so shallow that the spin would be less than 8 rpm regardless of manufacturer - hardly affecting trajectory in the least.

The hammerhead doesn't make paintballs more accurate by applying axial spin - rifling does nothing because it's not fast enough. However, it may be more accurate because a controlled axial spin is generated versus an uncontrollable spin. If you look at the twist (it's very shallow), you'll note that even at high velocity, the most the ball spins is about 6k to 8k rpm. Hardly enough to do anything, but it MAY prevent uncontrolled spin from developing. That's all. I personally think the Hammerheads shoot better than a lot of systems out there (I wouldn't say all) and for the machining involved, it's worth the price. It's expensive for the performance it gives, but it's not expensive for the machining and the quality of product you get.


Incidentally - I had the opportunity to shoot a 12" hammerhead on a z-body just yesterday. VERY interesting. The z-body is great - the balls just "float" well past the range where they should otherwise land (if you have never seen a z-body they really do work). With the hammerhead on it though, the balls corkscrew ever so slightly to the right. It's not enough that you could shoot around a bunker with and it is very consistent and predictable, but it's a good 2' deviation at 150'. Very interesting even if incredibly impractical.


Bottom line - The hammerhead's a good barrel though not necessarily the best and still very expensive. Even still - there was no reason to interrupt a sales rep and tell him he was wrong for making claims about his own product. Take caution the next time you decide to call someone out in front of a customer.

If you're out with your buddies, would you walk over to one of your friends who is speaking with a lady, interrupt him and tell the lady how much of a jerk your friend is? Well, you pretty much did just that...

[Jonno06]

the 12" does go farther.......by 4"s.:)

[Jack & Coke]

the 12" does go farther.......by 4"s.:)

actually it's "shorter"

think tip of barrel to target

[hitech]

No offense here, but those archived threads not particularly relevant to the discussion nor is it short enough that anyone could have a hope of reading it in a timely manner.

Yes they are. And that is the problem with attempting to "prove" the point. You have to be willing to learn...

[PekngDuk rndCrnz]

hmmm...

from what I know about basic physics...wouldnt spin on the ball make it LESS accurate?
Because of the Magnus Effect, the spin of the ball would create an imbalance on the ball's boundary layer. Due to the spin, one side of the rotating sphere would have a greater static pressure than on the other side. Robin's law dictates that a rapidly spinning projectile will have another force at right angles to it's spin axis.

I dont know ALOT about physics, but if the barrel made the ball spin counterclockwise, for example, wouldn't the ball have a slight curve to the left?

[Eric Of Extreme Measures]

HAMMERHEADS SUCK!

Im selling one on Ebay if any one is interested!!! Good Price!

Eric

[Lohman446]

This is good.. lets disect this

No offense here, but those archived threads not particularly relevant to the discussion nor is it short enough that anyone could have a hope of reading it in a timely manner.

I know there are mountains of quantitative data taken in a pretty well controlled way that debunk all the things I am going to say. So lets ignore them.

I've shot hammerheads, I've seen them shot and I've talked with the reps and one of the company owners. From my experience, they were all stand-up people that were simply trying to sell their products. Yes, there's some exaggeration going on, but they are trying to make money and from my experience, they do not do so unethically. I wish I could say the same about all paintball product manufacturers.

Its ok to flat out lie to consumers in order to get there money. This is not fraudulent or anything. Its just business

On the science side of things, the fin length as well as the ported length is the same for both the 8" and 12" versions of the hammerhead. The extra 4" is all rifling. If spin on the ball breaks down the boundary layer and decreases friction and the length of rifled barrel increases the spin, then a longer barrel WOULD result in a further flight. Question here - did the rep say, "A 12" barrel shoots further than an 8" barrel." or did he say, "OUR 12" barrel shoots further than OUR 8" barrel."? Clearly there's a big difference between the two statements. Regardless, you are a jerk for interrupting someone on their turf talking about their product. Personally I think he let you off easy.

Yeh.. because that rifling after the control bore... doesn' touch the ball. What good can it be? And yes.. our barrel takes away all physics, imparts a sphere of anti-gravitational material around your ball, and makes it shoot further..

Lastly - to all you flatline/Z-body people. It only works above about 25k rpm. Any less than that it actually hurts. Why? There is an "anti-magnus effect" so to speak. The ball actually moves away from the "fast" side in order to seek the path of least resistance. Until the magnus effect overcomes the additional friction on the "fast" side - backspin actually hurts. Backspin at low rpm pushes the ball down because it "pulls" the air over top of it. In fact, topspin at low rpm (say about 10k) causes the balls to "climb" the air. (Think of spin in ping-pong) Only when you break the barrier at about 25k rpm does backspin have a desirable effect. Obviously, the flatline does work and so does the z-body. But if you'll notice - they don't work below a certain velocity (obviously since it's friction-induced spin, higher velocity equates to higher rate of spin). Spin of less than 3k rpm does almost nothing to a pantball no matter how it is applied. Rifled barrels even with no slip, the twist is so shallow that the spin would be less than 8 rpm regardless of manufacturer - hardly affecting trajectory in the least.

So the flatline does not shoot further.. or around corners..

Incidentally - I had the opportunity to shoot a 12" hammerhead on a z-body just yesterday. VERY interesting. The z-body is great - the balls just "float" well past the range where they should otherwise land (if you have never seen a z-body they really do work). With the hammerhead on it though, the balls corkscrew ever so slightly to the right. It's not enough that you could shoot around a bunker with and it is very consistent and predictable, but it's a good 2' deviation at 150'. Very interesting even if incredibly impractical.

Ok, teh Z-body and flatline actually do work.. but only when used with our barrel?

Bottom line - The hammerhead's a good barrel though not necessarily the best and still very expensive. Even still - there was no reason to interrupt a sales rep and tell him he was wrong for making claims about his own product. Take caution the next time you decide to call someone out in front of a customer.

If you're out with your buddies, would you walk over to one of your friends who is speaking with a lady, interrupt him and tell the lady how much of a jerk your friend is? Well, you pretty much did just that...

Why... I might do it nicer, by asking how, but theres no reason to get away with crap like that. As to taking caution... please - going to attack me because I called your lie a lie. No big deal. As to the friend analogy... theres a difference - he's trying to commit fraud for physical acts.. not for money.

[Archangel Zer0]

I've shot hammerheads, I've seen them shot and I've talked with the reps and one of the company owners. From my experience, they were all stand-up people that were simply trying to sell their products. Yes, there's some exaggeration going on, but they are trying to make money and from my experience, they do not do so unethically. I wish I could say the same about all paintball product manufacturers.

If you're out with your buddies, would you walk over to one of your friends who is speaking with a lady, interrupt him and tell the lady how much of a jerk your friend is? Well, you pretty much did just that...

Lying isn't the same thing as exaggerating. Hammerhead lies about their product. Unethically and unequivocally. They claim their system is more accurate, has a tighter ball grouping, is quieter, is lighter, and is more tolerant of different quality paints than any other barrel. Look at their website. I see that they took down the "shoots itself clean in 3 shots" lie.

And if one of my buddies is talking to a chick that I caught gonorrhea from, I'll sure go over and tell him that she's unclean before he ends up the same way. Hammerhead is the unclean chick with the clap and I'm just trying to make sure that the guys on AO don't catch it, too.

[overkill8000]

yeah he is full of it i think that its more your preference. personally i like a longer barrel b/c their quiter, more air efficent, wrap bunkers better, and they look nicer to me. but as for accuracy and distance, mmmmmmmmmmmmm i dont think so. oh yeah and if u want a real opion try a website like this 9 out of 10 it'll be a true. of course thell try to sell u a longer barrel they make more money.

[overkill8000]

HAMMERHEADS SUCK!

Im selling one on Ebay if any one is interested!!! Good Price!

Eric

nice sell pitch lol..........

[vonort]

If it wasnt Robert that you were talking who. Who was it? Just curious.

[WARPED1]

So I guess you think that there shouldn't be a better business bureau or a consumer protection office then..

Bad business NEED to be interfered with. Snake oil salesmen NEED to be stopped.

If they don't like it, too bad. They have to live with the concequences of the unethical business model they've chosen to persue.

Nice Slarty, and I agree.

[Eric Of Extreme Measures]

nice sell pitch lol..........

LOLOLOL

They do, and I am, if you like them, you can have them....

To Each his own. I am not going to get started...again.

The Stiffi, even worst, selling them off too, good price, LOL


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...spagename=STRK

Id like to throw it in the lake, #*^%@^*@**$(#, or give it to the sales person we are talking about, right up his KAZOO, sideways and teach him a thing about inerta!
Eric