Should Logic Produce an Electro Frame?

[JoshK]

Gonna consider selling the blank frame and giving us the option of buying the internals a bit at a time? It'd be awesome if it could be used as a mech frame in the meantime.

I agree with my whole body.

[NoForts4Me]

Gonna consider selling the blank frame and giving us the option of buying the internals a bit at a time? It'd be awesome if it could be used as a mech frame in the meantime.

We can pretty much do this now *hint* Workshop *hint* if we want to put a little effort into it. No, there are not any frames made that are milled for certain parts, but you can buy whatever parts you want and stick in pretty much any frame you want.

Also, I can't see that selling a half finished product, and then saying "OK, here's a list of parts to finish it, and here are my sources so you can cut the middle man out and get them cheaper" would be very profitable. Even if he sold the parts and a schematic, he would spend all of his resources helping customers install the parts, and replacing parts the customers screwed up. Coolhand would probably still have to pay out royalties too, even selling the parts seperately.

[warbeak2099]

If there were mounts already in the frame he could just sell the individual parts to us to install ourselves. We've just need to bolt them on since there would already be mounts for them. He'd probably make more money by selling the parts to us seperately. In the meantime, if the frame could be used as a mech aka if it had a slot behind the trigger for the sear rod, it wouldn't be just a half-finished frame lying in our closet.
Basically, Ryan sells those of us who can't afford it all at once the bare frame and trigger. We use it as a mech and in the meantime buy the individual parts from him. The ram, the lpr, the microswitch, the board, the noid, etc. No skin off his nose. It's not like he'll have to be installing the parts for us. Example: I have the frame. First thing I'm going to get is the ram. Order the ram, ram get's to my house. Drop the ram into it's place in the frame and screw or bolt or whatever it on.

[CoolHand]

Well, there is something you all are missing, and try not to take offense to this. . . . . .

The great majority of the people who think they are smart enough to make something like this work . . . . . are not.

If it was just zippity-do-da easy, everyone and their dog would have already hacked up an ESP frame, and been done with it.

Bob at TAG found out the hard way that allowing the customer to install anything even remotely complex is just begging for trouble (which I don't need). Since I like to learn from other people's mistakes, I won't be repeating this one.

Nope, sorry to say this guys, but if I do this, its going to be an all or nothing deal.

There is no way that I am opening that can of worms. All I'd get done would be answering email and trouble shooting problems from guys who are "qualified" to DIY it. I may work out some kind of deal where you can pick and choose what parts you need to buy, but the major assembly will be done here. IF there is the choice to leave anything out, the part will be sold as is, with no support at all. Ask for it, and get ignored, if not outright ridiculed. Want support? Buy it whole.

That of course assumes that I decide to sell anything piecemeal at all (which I am not sure of just now).

I'm sorry, but that's just how its got to be.

As for the mech now, electro later thing, keep dreaming. The two are basically mutually exclusive, unless you are willing to modify a sear to work in mech mode (and even then I may not be able to make it work in both situations).

This is all so academic right now, you guys just need to set tight and let me get some quotes done, THEN, and only then can we discuss this with any measure of certainty.

[JoshK]

I see what you are saying coolhand. The only problem I would have with having to pay everything at once is the fact that you said there would be a limited supply (or am I wrong?) And that I wouldn't be able to get on because I wouldn't have the money at the time you were asking for it.

[warbeak2099]

If you can take apart and put your gun back together, I'd think you could handle dropping the components into the frame. I've worked on a couple e-pneu guns. It's not that hard to understand the workings. lpr goes to noid, noid goes to ram. You'd just need to buy the ram, board and noid, switch, and the battery harness and battery. Then you just drop em in the frame. I don't see why it would be hard to do that if there are already mounts for each part. It's not like we'd be fabricating anything. Just have to own and know how to use an allen wrench. If you don't know your way around an allen key then you shouldn't be allowed to play paintball in the first place, much less own a mag.

Sorry for being annoying Coolhand. I'm probably underestimating people's stupidity. I can't see someone being so stupid that they'd need to call you and ask how to drop the board in or connect the cocker hose to the barb on the ram. But then, there are people who surprise us all.

As for the mech thing. You'd just need to take the microswitch and ram out and put in a regular sear. And of course have a slot in the frame behind the trigger.

[JoshK]

If you can take apart and put your gun back together, I'd think you could handle dropping the components into the frame. I've worked on a couple e-pneu guns. It's not that hard to understand the workings. lpr goes to noid, noid goes to ram. You'd just need to buy the ram, board and noid, switch, and the battery harness and battery. Then you just drop em in the frame. I don't see why it would be hard to do that if there are already mounts for each part. It's not like we'd be fabricating anything. Just have to own and know how to use an allen wrench. If you don't know your way around an allen key then you shouldn't be allowed to play paintball in the first place, much less own a mag.

Sorry for being annoying Coolhand. I'm probably underestimating people's stupidity. I can't see someone being so stupid that they'd need to call you and ask how to drop the board in or connect the cocker hose to the barb on the ram. But then, there are people who surprise us all.

As for the mech thing. You'd just need to take the microswitch and ram out and put in a regular sear. And of course have a slot in the frame behind the trigger.

Not all people are..."mechanical oriented".

[MadPSIence]

if you made a bolt on frame.. complete with board and everything. I'd buy. So here's a Yes from me

[cdacda13]

I really like the idea of a pre-milled frame that will fit spyder internals.
I bet it would sell.

[RoadDawg]

I really like the idea of a pre-milled frame that will fit spyder internals.
I bet it would sell.

Well as much as I like the idea of cheap internals, I would not go the route of a spyder. Remember mags have strict tolerances, which means if something isn't on the mark, your mag will be an expensive paper weight. With that said... it would have to go above the quality I saw the last time I saw a mech logic frame. The user had to dink with it every game of play, now that may have been the end user but if it causes problems to someone I know it makes me doubt the products until proven otherwise. (not saying that all Logic's stuff doesn't work so go away flamers)

[warbeak2099]

This would have nothing to do with tolerances. The noid would just need to push back on the sear. Wouldn't disrupt any tolerances between the frame and rail or anything.

Anyhoo, it's a great idea. But I know Logic won't produce it. He's right, he doesn't want his name being associated with cheapy parts from Kingman. It would be cool if someone else would be willing to do it. But then, there is no mass producing mag dealer. That's what you need to make the thing cheap. Ah well, we have quality.

[BigEvil]

Bottom line is we get SOMETHING!!!

I still think a DIY frame is a great idea. Since the majority of the paintball playing public think that Mags are Shockers anyway.... I dont think there would be many name-recognition issues for associating crappy kingman parts to an aftermarket frame. You could always leave your name off of it anyhow. (I know, now im reaching )

[warbeak2099]

Or produce two products. The higher end e-pneu frame for those who can afford it. And the lower end kingman esp internal frame for those who can't afford the $400. Sell the bare kingman accepting frame for $175 and it would cost us around $125 to outift it with electronics. Actually, without the fancy stuff like ramping chip and all, it would cost us like under $100 for the electronics. A base setup would come to around $275. For those who can't afford $400, that's a great deal.

[CoolHand]

Well as much as I like the idea of cheap internals, I would not go the route of a spyder. Remember mags have strict tolerances, which means if something isn't on the mark, your mag will be an expensive paper weight. With that said... it would have to go above the quality I saw the last time I saw a mech logic frame. The user had to dink with it every game of play, now that may have been the end user but if it causes problems to someone I know it makes me doubt the products until proven otherwise. (not saying that all Logic's stuff doesn't work so go away flamers)

Ah yes, the ever so subtle dig at our build quality, which of course emanates from a minion of "he who shall not be named".

No flame intended here, but you must realize by now that everyone sees what is going on when you guys start this crap.

Take it elsewhere.

Nothing goes out my shop doors that I would not use myself. If something ever sneaks by, the problem is fixed or they get their money back, plain and simple.

And that will be the last word on whether the frame will be "quality" or have good "tolerances" or not.

[CoolHand]

I see what you are saying coolhand. The only problem I would have with having to pay everything at once is the fact that you said there would be a limited supply (or am I wrong?) And that I wouldn't be able to get on because I wouldn't have the money at the time you were asking for it.

We would do them in batches of 15 or 25.

When I get enough orders (say 10 in a batch of 15 or maybe 15 in a batch of 25), then I start the batch. If we get more orders than I have parts going, we will start on a new batch, and so on and so forth.

Limited production just means small numbers at a time, not this many and no more ever again. The tough part is shelling out ten G's to buy all the parts to build 50 or 75 of them at once, not continuing to make them.

As long as there is interest, we would continue to produce them.