Ugh I'm tired of hearing about it...

[Lohman446]

When ASTM standard 6.5.4 changes my view on ramping may change. Or when people conduct scientific studies that at least indicate it is safe. I used ramping.. I decided with the current legal environment, with no scientific studies to indicate it was safe, and all scientific standards indicating it was not that I was too close to civil and CRIMINAL negligence and they were not risks I was willing to take and quit taking them. Of course when I used it it was an informed decision, not using it was an informed decision, I actually knew the risks, and the standards. Look close, you can find ASTM 6.5.4

[Pyroboy597]

Whoever made this thread... show me where the inventor of the sport of paintball (if there even is a person who you can find) said "i never thought about electric guns that could shoot faster." You all are making statements that you cant back up.. Just because there are rediculously fast guns out there that can make the game "less fun" doesnt mean that people never thought that they would exist

[yakitori]

I take it you don't know what makes a marker ASTM compliant? BTW, it has NOTHING to do with ROF.

it does in the sense of THIS thread. We are talking about ramping, fa, etc. which concerns ROF. Where are you trying to take the discussion...la la land. .

[yakitori]

When ASTM standard 6.5.4 changes my view on ramping may change. Or when people conduct scientific studies that at least indicate it is safe. I used ramping.. I decided with the current legal environment, with no scientific studies to indicate it was safe, and all scientific standards indicating it was not that I was too close to civil and CRIMINAL negligence and they were not risks I was willing to take and quit taking them. Of course when I used it it was an informed decision, not using it was an informed decision, I actually knew the risks, and the standards. Look close, you can find ASTM 6.5.4

so I guess we should quit bunkering then too huh? Just cause ASTM says that goggles should not be shot at a distance closer than 10 feet, and if shot at a distance of 10 feet they should be replaced immediately. Do you follow that rule? Even if you are playing pump or semi? Likely not.

You guys still sound like a bunch of robots. You have to understand what it takes to get any scientific study passed in the US. Practically none. For example, pharmacuetical companies have three phases before FDA approves a drug for public use. Phase 1 studies involve a test group of only 8 ppl. Phase 2 is 16ppl. Phase three is 64 ppl. So many ppl are taking drugs that have been tested on only 74 ppl to get their results, some of which is biased to try and boost sales of their newly marketed drug. In fact, many drugs are even recalled after being released to the public. SOme of which cause serious health problems or death do to their side effects. Do americans take a stand on that? No, they dont. They dont even seem to care about health care or prescription drugs until their family has to pay for it.

Ill take my chances w/ ramping. I disagree w/ the ASTM in that aspect of paintball. When I personally get injured as a DIRECT result of ramping, then I will have all the scientific evidence I need to disagree with. However, I play w/ ppl that ramp every weekend for the past year, and I have not seen one injury that has been Scientifically linked to ramping.

Robots.

[Lohman446]

it does in the sense of THIS thread. We are talking about ramping, fa, etc. which concerns ROF. Where are you trying to take the discussion...la la land. .

Yak.. I posted ASTM standard 6.5.4 - where does it say anything about limiting rate of fire to XX balls per second? It limits firing modes, they are the only scientific published safety standards that I am aware of to address firing modes.

Edit... btw, I am sure the mods mentioned that personal attacks, flaming, and demeaning names were not acceptable, perhaps you should reread those considerations before you resort to calling anyone who has actual knowledge of ASTM rules "robots". Because I'm fine with playing the "punk name calling game" but its getting annoying. Disagree fine, but do so logically without having to take off hand remarks at the end.

[yakitori]

Yak.. I posted ASTM standard 6.5.4 - where does it say anything about limiting rate of fire to XX balls per second? It limits firing modes, they are the only scientific published safety standards that I am aware of to address firing modes.

ok lohman, I wasnt reciting an ASTM rule in a robot voice I was mocking someone. Geez.

[yakitori]

I said you guys sound like robots. That is not name calling. If you consider robots a personal attack against, I feel sorry for you.

You guys just dont consider anyones opinion to be valid unless I speak like a robot. Forget all the technical jargon. You are not going to be able to change the ramping rule. Get over it. Stop reciting the ASTM rule all the time. Its annoying.

moving on.......

[Lohman446]

ok lohman, I wasnt reciting an ASTM rule in a robot voice I was mocking someone. Geez.

Isn't mocking someone a personal attack and against the forum rules? A personal attack that the moderators warned you against in other threads? Nice edit though... you want to delete some of your content, I'll delete some of mine and we'll go... yeh, should have known better than to get into it

[yakitori]

Isn't mocking someone a personal attack and against the forum rules? A personal attack that the moderators warned you against in other threads?

Did I say that "someone" was an AO user. I was mocking the fact that ppl (in general) use ASTM standards as their personal vendetta against ramping. Moving on.......Old subject.......no changes........wont be.......moving on.

Whatever, the mods are smart enough and actually read the whole thread to see what statement ended up where. I was not launching a personal attack on anyone. Im sure they will be able to read that for themselves, they are smart, reasonable guys.

[SlartyBartFast]

Wow. Lot's of people talking at cross purposes and raising a dozen tangential issues.
Some of the issues:

What was paintball "meant to be".

Who cares what the inventor thought. The question is what do we think.

-What skills do you want to test?
-What is best to attract new players?
-What is best to make the sport attractive to watch?

Electronic/mechanical/pump/modifed-SC/SC

Who cares. Whatever rocks your boat.

However, any league, organisation, or field that is really interested in promoting and growing the sport and not just in turning a profit should promote ALL forms.

Ramping or using enhanced modes in games/leagues or on fields that don't allow it.

When it's expressly against the rules, ideally IMO, anyone ramping should be castrated on the spot. 20bps full auto from 5ft straight at the family jewels.

In leagues, teams should be disqualified for the day and players should be banned.
On fields, the player should be ejected from the property.

Accidentally ramped? My eye.

See below: "accidentally breaking rules"


Ramping/modes in games/leagues or on fields that allow it.

There's nothing to argue.

Rules are rules. Follow the rule book or suffer the consequences.

Don't use everything allowed and suffer the possible disadvantages associated with your decision.

But, what are the possible consequences of allowing anything other than unenhanced, semi-automatic, one trigger pull equals one ball in the air? see below

Ramping/modes in games/leagues or on fields that allow it.
But ramping HIGHER than allowed or using a mode that isn't specifically allowed.

See above: "Ramping or using enhanced modes in games/leagues or on fields that don't allow it."

Castration, Ejection, Disqualification, Banishment, Eternal Damnation. Al that good stuff.

Ramping/modes/full-auto chips and boards anywhere else

If you get your jollies wasting paint in your backyard or at the target range. Whatever.
If you like proving or bragging about things that are impossible during game play (bps/cps or whatever requiring SCUBA tanks or modifications that can't be brought on field or that won't result in the marker firing paint). Whatever.

Personally I think you're deranged. But then again I think people who like to rev their engines at stop lights, burn rubber, or like to brag about dynamometer readings and max torque are nincompoops with more than a single brain cell missing.

If you can't bring your game onto the field of competition and stay within the rules, you're worse than useless.

Or, you have a group of masochist friends who want to play full auto or "all modes allowed". Whatever. Have at it.

But, what are the possible consequences of allowing anything other than unenhanced, semi-automatic, one trigger pull equals one ball in the air? see below

Accidentally Breaking Rules/Not My Fault

There's no such thing as accidentally breaking a rule.

"I'm sooooo sorry Mr Umpire sir. I didn't know that the bat was corked. Honestly I didn't."

Rules are fair when they are enforced. Either you did or you didn't break the rule. The why or how is irrelevant. Break the rule, suffer the consequences.

SOME rules are open to interpretation. But that's what refs and officials are for.

In most cases though there is a complete lack of resposibility, honour, or moral fiber in both teams and individuals when it comes to either acting in the correct manner in the first place or living up to honour, duty, and responsibility once an infraction is caught.

Consequences of Allowing Ramping/Modes - Non-Legal

Well, at the tournament level no much. Any player can reasonable expect anything and everything allowable by the letter of the rule book and should be able to expect enforcement of the same. (and that's another hornet's nest that I've poked more than once before)

At the local level, it's a whole other ball of wax. How styles of play are divided may have an enormous impact on repeat business. The new players need to have an atmosphere in which they can become accustomed to the sport. Yet, they also need exposure to other styles of play.

While SC may not be a great money maker (it may be a money loser) for the field owner, perhaps it might "hook" newer players who won't be stressed by paint prices or be shell shocked by regulars raining down streams of paint. Where can you rent pumps anymore??

Consequences of Allowing Ramping/Modes - Legal

Here's an area that's so dark and uninviting that the entire paintball industry is at risk. Not just the allowing of firing modes that are specifically forbidden:
1 - by signed industry agreement,
2 - by industry developed regulations adopted by a national standards association (ASTM)
3 - by field insurance policies.

But also the entire host of regulations, required employee training, and safety violations that manufacturers, league organisers, promoters, field owners, and paintballers glibly ignore every day.

There's a very sound reason that AGD separated their non-paintball division(s) from their paintball division.

If anything came before a court of law, the first three items and the letter of official rule books would be what the incident would be judged on.

So far, injury and death in paintball has been attributed to equipment failure or incompetence (the CO2 tank that killed a mother or the field owner that used low pressure parts in a high pressure fill system).

But the day that any death or injury occurs that can be attributed to standard paintball procedure and equipment operating as designed (including adjusted within allowed limits) the "excrement will hit the air moving device".

Even in the U.S. the constitution can only protects ownership of firearms. Not so sure mere sporting goods would survive. Paintball isn't crucial to personal defense.

If firefighters and other professionals that use high pressure air are required by law to use blast containment tanks and have special training to fill cylinders why does paintball allow anyone on the field to self-fill while standing next to the tank or even while holding it? So what happens when a kid gets injured and the appropriate regulatory body stops ignoring the sport? (Although I am unsure of what the true implications are in this case. The very companies that are involved in highly regulated HP gas industries supply the self-serve fill stations to the unregulated paintball industry.)

One player, suffering an injury, could sue the pants off another player that caused it and sue the league into non-existance for not enforcing rules or preventing forseeable and preventable injuries. A ramping hair trigger putting multiple shots into the back of a player's head on a bunkering move for example....

Currently, today with no new laws or regulations, one inspector on a mission could shut down most fields. How many tanks and air equipment could be confiscated at the average day of play by someone enforcing the gas industry rules? How many untrained employees subject to fines? How many field fill installations don't meet regulations? How many improperly filled tanks?

If you thought some paintball operations had it tough because of uninformed prejudice on town planning boards, wait till you see the problems EVERY paintball operation will have when EVERY planning board and town council has access to enforceable required standards based on the same prejudices AND informed opinion.

Conclusion

There are MANY other issues. If you're "sick of hearing about it" as this thread proclaims, tough.

Deal with the threads by responding intelligently or ignore them. Or, in the words of those that think others MUST adopt their way or hit the highway, you can leave the discussion boards.

Should the NHL and MLB just accept drug use because "that's the way it's played"? Should those that don't like corked bats, overcurved sticks, or the teams that dislike the new tire rules in F1 all just either live with the cheating or put-up with the rules or simply quit?

IMO, no.

[SlartyBartFast]

So, Yaki.

Am I a robot if i parrot official NPPL rules to complain about behaviour or point out inconsistencies?

Your entire position seems to be:

I'm a cheater. I don't care if you know I cheat. If there are rules I don't care about them. If you don't like it, get off my field.

[Lohman446]

Slarty... I think you forgot one thing in your well worded summary. Some of us beleive that there is a distinct possibility that ramping (violating ASTM standards) may result in criminal (as well as civil) negligence should something go tragically wrong

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167377

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

There are MANY other issues. If you're "sick of hearing about it" as this thread proclaims, tough.

Deal with the threads by responding intelligently or ignore them. Or, in the words of those that think others MUST adopt their way or hit the highway, you can leave the discussion boards.

this thread has just become one giant mess with insults being throwin everywhere. this thread started with one person saying he thinks ramping should be banned forever yet he has posted numerous times how he loves ramping boards. Then it evolved to should ramping be allowed, then it evolved again to people sounding like robots, then the bashing started.

Can we all just let this thread die because this is going nowhere

[SlartyBartFast]

then it evolved again to people sounding like robots, then the bashing started.

All think all but one would be adamant that the bashing started one post back with the resort to calling posters robotic.

The initial insult was given/taken based on one member's complete inability to avoid resorting to demeaning and mocking comments whenever argued into a corner.

They of course don't view it that way. They believe that adjectives and indirect atack constitue viable logical argumentation.

But it has already been demonstrated that some people have no understanding of firstly why certain posts can be interpreted as insulting even when the don't specifically name others and secondly (and far more puzzling) don't even get it when people are offended that they ARE specifically named (thinking back to an infamous "appology thread").

Can we all just let this thread die because this is going nowhere

Don't like it, you can leave all by yourself. Unsubscribe and ignore the thread.

Or, in the pathetically misguided opinion of some, your dislike of this one thread should mean that you should completely avoid AO altogehter. Much like a dislike of an aspect of paintball is grounds to demand that someone quit playing altogether. A piece of advice they themselves seem to ignore.

The first post of this thread is as wrong in its adamant claims of True and Pure Paintball as those that claim the same of ramping, mode using, wiping, and rule bending.

An another note:

The ONLY people who can ask for a thread to stop are the mods.

And ironically, your call to have it die has just given it more life and yet another divergant topic.... :rofl:

[Automaggot68]

Im sorry, but you have totally gotten your idea reversed. I have not taken the side against ramping. Re-read my posts. I am actaully ragging on ppl for complaining about ramping.

Please learn to read.

Oh MY MISTAKE.
Quit slamming people who...LIKE it then?
I could care elss what the hell your stance is, you're handling it like a damned jerk.