Ugh I'm tired of hearing about it...

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

All think all but one would be adamant that the bashing started one post back with the resort to calling posters robotic.

Don't like it, you can leave all by yourself. Unsubscribe and ignore the thread.

1. i was referring to yaki
2. i have been ignoring threads like this, then one by one the topics all keep comming back. this thread was started by one person disliking something. why can't he just ignore it and leave. then everyone wouldn't have such a hassle arguing with eachother.

[hitech]

I said you guys sound like robots. That is not name calling.

hUH??? Sure it is. It's calling those guys robots. Now, you MAY not think calling someone a robot is insulting, but I'd bet most people do. I know I do, and I am one of "those guys".

[yakitori]

lol, this funny. Some of you guys post in rebutal to my posts and try to insult and demean my statements and Im okay with it. Yet I say *in a robot voice* Non-Compliant ASTM etc, etc. and you guys go into a rage. You guys are taking the ramping issue and rules to the extreme. Youve disected rules and pushed it to no end. Who cares. THats all Im saying. Its annoying to see how many threads are started in one week about a ramping issue that we all know the other persons position on the subject is yet we still continue to make the same statements over and over. Agree to disagree, stop griping about everything, and being so negative about every rule and *in a robot voice* ASTM standards say this "...."

If thats what you believe about ramping and ASTM standards then stick with it. Im happy for you for standing up for what you believe in. But you dont have to parade the forum w/ the same positions on a ton of threads about the issue trying to get everyone else to believe it too. Ramping to 15bps where tournies allow it, big deal. I dont even use ramping, so I am speaking from the non ramping side. Ramping, big deal *shrugs* thats kinda how I feel about it. And so does a large percentage of paintballers. Dont play with ppl that use ramping when its appropriate since your are against it, thats really standing up for what you believe.

[Lohman446]

lol, this funny. Some of you guys post in rebutal to my posts and try to insult and demean my statements and Im okay with it. Yet I say *in a robot voice* Non-Compliant ASTM etc, etc. and you guys go into a rage. You guys are taking the ramping issue and rules to the extreme. Youve disected rules and pushed it to no end. Who cares. THats all Im saying. Its annoying to see how many threads are started in one week about a ramping issue that we all know the other persons position on the subject is yet we still continue to make the same statements over and over. Agree to disagree, stop griping about everything, and being so negative about every rule and *in a robot voice* ASTM standards say this "...."

If thats what you believe about ramping and ASTM standards then stick with it. Im happy for you for standing up for what you believe in. But you dont have to parade the forum w/ the same positions on a ton of threads about the issue trying to get everyone else to believe it too. Ramping to 15bps where tournies allow it, big deal. I dont even use ramping, so I am speaking from the non ramping side. Ramping, big deal *shrugs* thats kinda how I feel about it. And so does a large percentage of paintballers. Dont play with ppl that use ramping when its appropriate since your are against it, thats really standing up for what you believe.

You know.. thats odd, before we got into this personal level of insults I said specifically that my stance was tied to ASTM standard 6.5.4 and when it changed I would reconsider my viewpoint. I'm more concerned with the criminal negligence of using it myself than allowing its use. Having used it and gone away from it I really don't see the great competetive advantage it is supposed to give anyways.

[yakitori]

You know.. thats odd, before we got into this personal level of insults I said specifically that my stance was tied to ASTM standard 6.5.4 and when it changed I would reconsider my viewpoint. I'm more concerned with the criminal negligence of using it myself than allowing its use. Having used it and gone away from it I really don't see the great competetive advantage it is supposed to give anyways.

and we all know that was your position before this thread was even started. Im just saying that threads that get started over and over about the same issue that have always ended up in ppl taking strong opposition to each other on the issue, when we already know that ppl who are on both sides of the issue have deep opinions about their position. Why do we have to keep repeating the same issue over and over when they always end up the same. Its a broken record and its sad to see the same issue started in 3 or so threads in a week just to encourage debate.

agree to disagree. Im not saying anything else about the issue, I know where you stand on it and your reasons for it. I guess Im just a bit more permissive than most ppl. It doesnt seem to bother me as much because I love playing paintball. I dont care if someones ramping to an acceptable level against me. It helps me perfect my moves and make better, quicker decisions and snap shoot faster. Im not griping about it, and I have not been injured. I get bruises from welts no matter what. I havent noticed an increase in welts since playing against ppl that ramp and I shoot my viking in semi. If I played in PSP and its allowed, Id use it.

[SlartyBartFast]

You know.. thats odd, before we got into this personal level of insults I said specifically that my stance was tied to ASTM standard 6.5.4 and when it changed I would reconsider my viewpoint. I'm more concerned with the criminal negligence of using it myself than allowing its use. Having used it and gone away from it I really don't see the great competetive advantage it is supposed to give anyways.

Let's face it. Certain members of AO couldn't tell a logical argument from a hole in their head.

I too am apt to change my mind. But when the opposing view point is expressed by simply parroting "why do you care?" and a "screw the rules" attitude you have to wonder why they even bother posting.

I mean if your standpoint is so vacant that you have absolutely nothing positive to say and no reasonable support for your beliefs, why bother posting?

And it's pathetic that avoiding threads is SIMPLE. So why do the same people come into threads we know they have nothing of substance to contribute to only to ***** and whine that the thread is useless or lob generalised insults?

I've challenged some people to quote me and then themselves with one, JUST ONE, logical well thought out point and counterpoint. And they can't come up with even that.

When continued to be challenged logically they get insulting (in their own words: defensive). When their inconsistencies are pointed out or you complain about insults they don't know what you're talking about and invariably answer:

"Read back through the thread. I answered you. Do your own homework." What a crock. I can't imagine what trying to have a face to face conversation is like with someone like that.

Personally, I'd love to hear why ramping is good, why cheaters should be ignored, and how any of that is good for the sport or an improvement of the game.

Also, I'd like to see counter arguments as to why various analogies are specifically invalid and why paintball equipment is somehow different from anything else covered by ASTM.

Perhaps a defense of why the industry went agfainst their own agreements or ignore ASTM.

Counter proposals on how to promote better rules enforcement? Proposals for better rules?

But no. The mental midgets just want to brag, boost their ego, and pose with the latest shiney piece of equipment. The result here is people too lazy to make a point and who consider mockery and insult legitimate discourse. Or people so self-absorbed that they figure that if they can get away with it too, why fix anything.

[hitech]

Why do we have to keep repeating the same issue over and over when they always end up the same. Its a broken record and its sad to see the same issue started in 3 or so threads in a week just to encourage debate.

Because it's interesting. Different people join in each thread along with the "regulars". And, no offence intended, those who don't like them can just ignore them. Hell, I ignore A LOT of threads...

[Lohman446]

I am soo confused. We started a thread, and many of use put out logical reasoned arguments to both sides of the issue. We were having a reasonable discussion. Then one person, who posted well before I did for instance, decides to resort to name calling. Then that same person says noone should have stated there opinion???

[Blazestorm]

Another thought to add...

Mags were probably the first gun to illegally achieve high ROFs...

Higher input pressure + Hybrid on Emags?

[yakitori]

thats exaclty my point. Ppl brag about mags speed, and then call ppl that shoot that fast w/ any other gun using ramping or bounce a cheater. Tippmann RTs are cheating, cranking up your psi on your RT to bounce it is cheating, hybrid mode bounce is cheating, yet ppl single out ramping. I say get over it and get bashed. Ppl quote me and say things like "fuzzy logic" and "unintelligent" and dont think its bashing/flaming until I say robots.

Im through discussing anything w/ lohman or slarty. They can be on my ignore list from now on. All they do is get smart about every statement. Disect every rule and support ASTM. Yet, ASTM doesnt have published scientific research that I am capable of reading the abstract, intro, materials and methods, results, conclusiong, and discussion of the REAL scientific techniques they used to determine a safe level of paintball play. Nobody has provided that, yet they always as for scientific evidence that ramping is not safe. There isnt documentation to prove that either. That makes it a play at your own risk.

[BD_Paintball]

yakitori you'r my new e-hero

[Lohman446]

I love how Shartely and I are thrown into the people who just go nuts over a high pressure RT. Funny, it seems I make the same comments regarding that type of thing.... So my "two sided" thing with the RT is just a flat out falsehood that someone hoped could be applied to me.

I don't recall calling you unitelligent, or using the term fuzzy logic... I have said before that i don't think some things make sense, but that is directed to ideas, and the expressions of thoughts.

Funny how its always "ASTM standards" that is all I talk about. I have said before that I think the advantages of ramping are overrated and I have also said that it was more of a concern of criminal negligence than it was of violating ASTM standards... though those standards are a big part of negligence.

So... you going to apply something to me, at least make sure its something that is in reality there.

[yakitori]

I love how Shartely and I are thrown into the people who just go nuts over a high pressure RT. Funny, it seems I make the same comments regarding that type of thing.... So my "two sided" thing with the RT is just a flat out falsehood that someone hoped could be applied to me.

I don't recall calling you unitelligent, or using the term fuzzy logic... I have said before that i don't think some things make sense, but that is directed to ideas, and the expressions of thoughts.

Funny how its always "ASTM standards" that is all I talk about. I have said before that I think the advantages of ramping are overrated and I have also said that it was more of a concern of criminal negligence than it was of violating ASTM standards... though those standards are a big part of negligence.

So... you going to apply something to me, at least make sure its something that is in reality there.

I use your name and slartys in there because you two seem to be the only two that go on and on and on about my statements. Not once did I say Lohman and slarty brag about the mags speed by sweetspotting yet gripe about other guns. I always say PPL as in AO in general. And thats still not accusing everyone on AO. Ive seen threads however where slarty has bragged about the air valves recharging capabilities. Which would have an input pressure of over 900psi. Big deal. And its still illegal.

So to sum it up for you again. I never used your two names in the same sentence or accused you of saying such things about the speed of mags.

And you still havent been able to provide REAL scientific studies that are complete w/ materials and methods of how ASTM has concluded upon their findings. There must be some if it is REAL scientific studies that was conducted to find it out. Everyone has a hypothesis and tests it using a control group and a test group. I want to see some physical scientifc proof that ASTM standards are safe.

I dont feel criminally negligent cause I play an extreme sport where ppl get shot w/ projectiles whether Im shooting 13-16bps in semi or ramping controllably at 15bps. Just because ramping is a feature doesnt mean that everyone is just letting paint fly at 15bps. You dont have to make the ramping activate ya know. Its 3 pulls semi, on the fourth shot you have to maintain a certain bps to ramp. You can still pull with one finger w/o hosing someone. It falls on the judgement of the user. You seem to blame the guns and the ppl who made the 15bps rule.