To the few people here I won't name..

[yakitori]

I hope you didnt have my name in mind because I dont say mags are clunky, worthless, etc. because they arent. If I ever wanted a mech gun again, it would be a mag. I sold all my mag stuff not because I WANTED to move on to something else, although I kinda did, but because AO is one of the few places to even get mag parts. Mags are getting older each year, and the only parts that I could get for them were used w/o paying WAY too much buying from AGD. If I am going to spend that much on a mech, heck, I might as well go w/ something else right. I want parts to be available still in a few years, or at least have decent resale. Mags are fine with me.

I dont understand why you come on w/ only 600 posts, most of which are arguing, complaining about ppl w/ 1000+ posts that you think should leave. At one post per day that is a year longer than youve been here. What gives you the right to tell those ppl to bug off. And you start arguments a nearly every thread you post in. How is that preserving the mag community and AO? If you want to do that, promote things for mags. Bring ppl together, not split them down the middle like our govt chooses to do. Where do you think that leads? Civil war? Arguing, bashing, griping, complaining, and that doesnt promote anything.

Im going to use aliens 8 my dad for an example because I have met him and he is a nice guy. Ok, his picture is on the banner of this website, and he is shooting his emag, which was one of the nicest ones ive shot. He has since purchased an Eclipse EGO. You ask him what he thinks is better and for what reasons, and he will likely tell you similar things that we say and that you consider "bashing" when it isnt. Just because we say breakbeam eyes are better than LX, this gun is more efficient, has less kick, easier to shoot faster, easier on paint, better balanced, and IMO better gun..........those are facts that MOST paintball players will recognize. But, there are a lot of mag users that get offended, and say you are bashing their guns, and argue the points that they dont want to admit.

So aliens, how is that ego workin for ya. Havent seen ya at the factory.

[warbeak2099]

Well, I think we can all admit that both sides get out of hand. There are people who bash mags unintelligently and those who praise them just as stupidly.

And then there are those of us who are objective. I realize mags have flaws. All guns have flaws. I choose to shoot a mag because I can live with the flaws it has. I also shoot it because I really like the pros of the gun. If you enjoy shooting another gun, fine. That's ok. But don't rub it in my face and insult the gun I choose to shoot on here.

That being said, mag owners shouldn't be rubbing mags in other people's faces. AO would be a lot better off if people just chilled about what gun someone's shooting. It's not a big deal. Some people's personal preferences are different than others. If you can't deal with that then no, you shouldn't be on this forum no matter how many posts you have or what gun you shoot. If you have to resort to acting like a 12yo brat saying things like, "mags are the best gun ever, screw all of you ion and shocker owners, your guns break all the time and are just terrible because smart parts are nazis" or "mags are outdated and can't compete because they are mags and everyone knows that, my shocker is the best gun ever, everything about mags is bad", then you should really just committ suicide. Because at that point you will have proven to everyone that you have lost what it means to be a human being. And that is intelligence. Intelligence means you back things up with facts and express them in a calm and respectful manner.

If you can't match both of those criteria, using facts not hype, and speaking respectfully and not like a total prick, then you shouldn't be here. Both of the groups should be ashamed. We're supposed to be all about tolerance here. The both of you are destroying that. So put a sock in it, change the way you act, or leave. I really don't see how you people can't understand that. You bit each other's heads off for destroying our forum when it's the both of you at fault.

Mags are not perfect. No gun is perfect. Automags.org is a place for everyone, mag owner or not, to have mature, intelligent discussions about paintball. It is not the place to bash mags. It is not the place to bash any gun. End of story.

[VFX_Fenix]

Okay... I have a question, why was this thread even started?

I mean, I understand the motivation for starting this thread, but what was the end that it was hoped it would achieve beyond drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Everyone who doesn't think the Automag is the End-All-Be-All Cat's MEEEEOW gun, get on the otherside of that line because I don't want to talk to you anymore"?

I believe there was a point in time when AO was a reasonably objective core of people who knew their gun was good, but also knew their gun needed improvements. They also believe firmly in the tests that have been done in various sectors of AGD's research reguarding some of the misconceptions that have been propogated through the industry and paintball playing community at large.

The objective individual can step away from their alliances/beliefs and see the flaws that might exist in those alliances/beliefs/etc.

There are people in every forum who would place their marker's creator uppon a pedistle and defend them with the almost religious zeal of a "true believer". These members are necesary in every community and often are the very core of that community. However these individuals if left without moderates, objective, and even members from the other side of the isle the community may well be at peace with itself, but the community as a whole stagnates and becomes increasingly hostile even to those who even share some of that community's views. Thus even a Moderate/Objective individual can be labled an extremist because in the context of that community their views are extreme.

In the absense of an opposing point of view, ideas (which can be heavily flawed) are allowed to be propogated to the point where they are assumed to be "truth". It is only through testing of an idea/notion/hypothesis/premiss under the scruteny of objective individuals can anything be said to be the way that it is. In the real world this is done through tests of one form or another, here its done through debate and the presentation of evidence from various sources. Matters of opinion are simply that, opinion. If that opinion (or at the very least aspects of that opinion) can't be changed with empirical evidence then that opinion goes beyond a simple opinion and can be considered to be, for lack of a better word, "faith".

Case in point -
John Walker firmly believes that his Agg-Gat 5000 is more accurate because there are pixies that fly with the paint to the targets. If Bill Walking happens to conduct a study of the Agg-Gat 5000 along with several other guns ('05 Super Blender, '03 Chop-o-Mattic, and HoseBeast TacDriver) and finds that in his test using a plethora of techniques he is unable to find a statistically significant accuracy advantage. He comes back to John with his Agg-Gat 5000 and gives him the results of his tests and John refuses to believe that there aren't pixies and that his gun is more accurate.

^^^^ Sounds silly, right? But it happens all the time with guns/barrels/regs/stickers/etc. (Yes, I said stickers, your favorite racing technology sticker on your car, reguardless of make/model/etc. will add at LEAST 15 mental Horse Power to your car's performance, same goes for paintball gear, guaranteed to make you shoot faster and your hopper load quicker)

What I'm trying to get at is a community needs more than just "Yes Men" to blow smoke up who ever's pants every time something is propposed or claimed or what ever.

If you ever find yourself feeling upset or agitated over someone's claim or "bash" on something you believe in, take a momment, step back, consider why you're upset and what the bash is attacking. Is it attacking something you know can be proven (and has been)? Or is it attacking an opinion you have? Or is it just something that stems from pure ignorance (again, back to the "can be proven" clause)?

Can the ULT be set-up to be super light and super short and walked just as easily as an electro? No, certainly not without some mechanical sideffects or cycling issues (at least in my experience). The ULT is walkable with practice and a certain technique, but it is a far cry from pushing a little lever with a magnet as the only resistance.

Can Automags be servicable and competative guns? Absolutely

Can Level 10 really shoot even the most brittle shelled tournament paint? With time and effort put into tuning it, sure.

Can other guns be superior to the Automag? Yep

Is the Automag a popular gun? No
Why? Reputation and public image (or lack there of) as well as a slew of other reasons from cost to asthetics to flat out people just not liking them for no good reason other than they don't like'em or even know the gun exists.


What I object to, reguardless of situation, is the "Holier than thou art" attitude which can be taken on by people who don't have half a leg to stand on other than the general consensus of the rest of the community either because they have no prior history with an issue or their view is based out of a clear bias. It's a falacy to say "If you don't like it, go somewhere else." That totalitarian attitude does nothing to help a community grow and evolve.

So what was this thread started for?

I think it was to jump on a band-wagon and say "Look at me, I'm cool too and we should punish those infadels, who's with me?!"

HOWEVER - I must qualify, that, if this thread was started as a genuine question as to why individuals such as those whom shall not be named hang out on forums such as these, and not some sort of mob mentality item, then all you have to do is ignore my proposed answer for why I think this thread was started and you'll have your answer in my opinion.

[Alpha]

[QUOTE=magman007]I for one, do not bash them, but i will tell you, they arent all that some people on this site hype them up to be.
QUOTE]

26bps without shootdown, but hav ebeen taken to speeds far past that.

A ruggid, durable marker that can take a beating, an dkeep on going. Its not uncommon to see mags almost older then most members here.

Arguably the best mechanical design in the paintball industry. The RT series has so much potential in it. It only takes $200 to build your own pneumag. So a Paradigm+ $200 is about $650. You can easily push 20 with a pneumag and a strong walk (though its no timmy).

Mags aren't the best. But they aren't ****. And when you come here and say how they are horrible pieces of junk, its like stabbing a priest in the back while he's giving a speech at a church.

[warbeak2099]

Exactly. Objectivity is key. But mag bashers and mag praisers are too ignorant to know that. The both of them need to wise up.

[Fred]

You have no idea what AO has been about, was about, is about, or could have been about, unless you've read through all the archives of the past few years, that's fact (or have a previous account/been lurking).

Since March, or whenever you joined, and even before then, AO has not been the Historic AO.

Its a pale shadow of its once powerful, once influential, and once relevant presence in the Paintball Community.

Get over it, get over yourself, move on, like most of us who have been here long enough to realize what we've lost have.

[JoshK]

Wow...this post is horrible. You really have no idea what AO used to be like (even the a year ago when I joined)...I think you should just suck it up and deal. Allthough you do have a valid point, it isn't completly acurate.

The mags forum was made when Mags WERE (notice that word) the best thing since sliced bread. Since then people who were originally mag followers have found new and better things. It is really hard to have an older forum that is devoted to guns that arn't even made anymore (really...don't get me on technicalities) and expect those older members to all stay with a gun that isn't being improved upon. But you can expect them to stay because of the community they helped create...why would they leave something like that? Do you expect them to because they found a better gun, and like telling those who want information there are guns that are better?

Of course I have seen it go to the extreme, with both mag lovers, and dis-likers. I don't think if you were to ask a single person this forum they would tell you they hate mags, but there are better things out there.

I would post more but it is late, and my thoughts are too jumbled. Basically you have no right to tell some of our most extablished (sp?) members to go away because you don't like what they have to say.

And second deal with it and please shut up. Everyone has to deal with both sides of the spectrum, and you don't see others complaining.

Good night.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I currently use a mag and love it...but it isn't the best thing out there anymore. So don't give me the "if you hate mags" crap you have given all the other people that didn't agree with you.

[shartley]

http://gprime.net/video.php/reallifevsinternet

[JoshK]

Haha...I saw you post on MCB...classic!

[zackzel]

http://gprime.net/video.php/reallifevsinternet

Haha, that was great, I think alot of the people on here need to watch this.

[MadPSIence]

To Fred and Fenix, sorry but despite what you think even when AO was at it's prime it was hardly a huge thing in the sport. You could have gone to most fields and said you were a member at AO and they'd look at you like you had an apendage growing out of your forehead.

Just because you guys have been here for years or posted thousands of times doesn't mean anyone newer can't have an opinion or be intelligent. You sound like the "seniors" on PBN calling people stupid for being "2k5'ers" just in a much more intellectual sounding manner.

This was never about mags being the holy grail of paintball guns. I never once stated that in this entire thread. I actually clearly and in bold stated that in this thread I would not care to discuss how good or bad mags are.

For "veterans" you sure miss the point. The point was, that people have no real right to come here and do nothing but flame the guns and business that this entire forum was built around and still exists to support the love of. Never did I say it was wrong for people to properly criticize a gun for what it is, or to take someone down a step when they exaggerate the "greatness" of mags. Please read the first post a little more clearly before you come talk about how you have been here for years in good times and bad blah blah.

Night.

[JimmyBeam]

This Is The House That Tom Built, Do Not Come Here And Say The Furniture Sucks.

it doesnt suck, but could sure use a reupholster.

[magman007]

To Fred and Fenix, sorry but despite what you think even when AO was at it's prime it was hardly a huge thing in the sport. You could have gone to most fields and said you were a member at AO and they'd look at you like you had an apendage growing out of your forehead.

Just because you guys have been here for years or posted thousands of times doesn't mean anyone newer can't have an opinion or be intelligent. You sound like the "seniors" on PBN calling people stupid for being "2k5'ers" just in a much more intellectual sounding manner.

This was never about mags being the holy grail of paintball guns. I never once stated that in this entire thread. I actually clearly and in bold stated that in this thread I would not care to discuss how good or bad mags are.

For "veterans" you sure miss the point. The point was, that people have no real right to come here and do nothing but flame the guns and business that this entire forum was built around and still exists to support the love of. Never did I say it was wrong for people to properly criticize a gun for what it is, or to take someone down a step when they exaggerate the "greatness" of mags. Please read the first post a little more clearly before you come talk about how you have been here for years in good times and bad blah blah.

Night.

you sir, are a complete fool. You have no idea what ao was about, how ao used to be, and how influential AO once was on the industry. Did you know that ao baisically showed everyone the truth about Jim Drew? Do you realize that AO used to be against the hype? That ao used to help dispell popular myths? Do you realize that AO helped develop many of the products you praise to this day? Lvl 10? ao beta tested it. Superbolt? We tested it, and proved it was a bad design. ULT? yep, ao members at an agd tech class who tested that one as well.

You sir have no idea what ao was about, you werent on ao when AO was AO. You have no idea what went on, or how any thing went on. You cant preserve something that is as far gone as ao is now.

Do you think it is safe to wrap up a piece of steak that sat outside for a week, then throw it in the freezer to preserve it? No and by your preservation of ao, this is what you are trying to do.

The thing about ao, is now, it is clouded up in its own hype, AO has befallen to what it once dispelled. People post in your opinion to "bash mags" to dispell the hype about them. Everytime i see some one Debating whether or not to get an e-mag, i recount my personal experiences with my e-mag and my sfl, and i think to my self, they were great markers, but there are markers invariably better on the market. For example, a dye DM3 with many ups, is available in the same price bracket, or 2k2 timmies can be had at the same price.

Now honestly, are you going to take a wonky, almost unwieldy marker, that is blind, with a trigger system that is not nearly as adjustable to ones liking, to something that has eyes, is easier to adjust, and setup to ones liking? Something that also will hold its resale value quite a bit better, and something that is invariably more relevant in todays modern sport?


Madpsience, all you do here is try to swing off toms nuts. You suck up to an office lady, whose name you cant even spell correctly, When you do not even know of the great Jo Anne?
Marcia is great btw, wont deny that.

You are being a Zealot, a Fanatic, some one who is over the top. Get over it. When some one asks if they should get a mag, they shouldnt be inundated with, yes go get one, they are the best. Because in all honesty, they arent. For the price, you can get electros, which are much more competitive, easier to shoot faster, easy to maintain, and easy to stay competitive with. You can get ions, impulses, etc for quite cheep, all of which are invariably better than a mech mag. if mech is your fortay, then so be it,

in all honesty, quit posting. all you have done is tried to stir up controversy, and no one likes you for it.




Edit: also, i find it funny that on ao, you claim to be canadian, and on pbn you claim to be costa rican, just thought id point that out

[VFX_Fenix]

After much thought, I have only this left to say to you Mad...

Objectivity seems to escape you, as does a tolerance for those who's views are more extreme than your own. Condem whom you must and be done with it.

[magman007]

After much thought, I have only this left to say to you Mad...

Objectivity seems to escape you, as does a tolerance for those who's views are more extreme than your own. Condem whom you must and be done with it.

so you are saying he is a communist? because we dont take kindly to communists