Penalties in paintball and intent

[Lohman446]

I watch football and basketball and penalties are fairly common. Never is intent questioned for holding, charging, doube dribble, or travelling, you did it, why is not important - penalty.

How often do you see someone instinctively turn and fire after being hit, to spin. They fire after eliminated, I had a person do this this weekend, put four shots on me, after I had hit him. Did he intentionally mean to break the rules - I don't beleive so. The refs were on top of things, called me clean and him out, and took no penalty. This case, I don't care, but there should have been at least a 1-1 penalty for playing on.

The point I have, have we gotten in paintball were we question intent of action, rather than action. I'm not trying to turn this into a what constitutes cheating threat. My point is, would the game become cleaner if rather than questioning intent we simply penalized players who broke the rules, regardless of intent, even if its an accident? I think so.

[TheShark]

Agreed... unless you're talking about "intent to injure" in which case the penalty should be much more severe. Intent really isn't relevent in major sports and shouldn't be in paintball either.

[TheTramp]

I agree with you. If you backman shot you on the brake you'd still be out even if he didn't "mean to." That guy shot you after he'd been eliminated so there should be a penalty.

I like the idea of removing points vs. 1 for 1 type penalties. Of course you'd have to remove enough points to make it worth trying to play fair.

[Lohman446]

In the reverse side, because I can tell you my intent and not someone elses. That same day we were late in a game, 30 seconds left, we had the flag and needed the hang. I made a run down the tape against there last two players, paused behind a bunker that did not provide cover and shot it out with the last two players who had no cover from me. I felt a hit on the back left side of my leg about three seconds before I shot the second player (who my other player also shot). The ref was out of position to verify the hit, and I had no cover. The rules say I had to verify before I shot, I shot anyways. My intent was not to cheat to win... I decided not to risk being eliminated to get the flag hang. When I looked down after the otehr two players were leaving the field I did not see a hit, it was not until I reached back to feel that I found the hit, out of sight on my leg. I called myself out and walked off field. Had a ref seen that hit before I did what was the right answer? He should have assessed the penalty - again, my intent, or lack there of, to cheat, is meaningless in assessing the penalty.

[SlartyBartFast]

My point is, would the game become cleaner if rather than questioning intent we simply penalized players who broke the rules, regardless of intent, even if its an accident? I think so.

Damn straight.

The incident you described is playing on. Should have been called as such. Intent is meaningless. The rules should be enforced as written.

While sometimes it MAY be acceptable to be lenient with the rules and "interpret" them, on the whole it's a bad idea. Look at hockey. THey've been lenient on a number of rules and now find themselves in a predicament.

[trains are bad]

I don't think intent is really important. first of all it is impossible to determine it because people lie. Second of all rules should be written so it is irrelevant.

Oops, I didn't mean to overshoot him. Too, bad, that's irrelevant, you shouldn't have shot him 35 times regardless if it was because you meant to or if it was becaues you suck on the trigger or if you could'nt see him. You broke the rules, take it.

Oops I didn't mean to be shooting 330fps, my marker crept because of the heat. Too bad, that's irrelevant, you shouldn't have been shooting 330fps regardless of whether you meant to or you marker is a poor design or needs a better reg. You broke the rules, take it.

Oops, I didn't feel the hit. Tough, the hit was in an objectively defined area determined to be reasonably feelable. Wear thinner clothes if you have to, pay more attention or have you teammates check you better. Staying within the rules is part of playing.

Oops, I didn't mean to go out of bounds. Well of course you didn't. It's also irrelevant. You went out of bounds, play better next time.

When a player breaks the rules it makes no difference whether or not they meant to. If they were honestly trying to stay within the rules, who cares, they failed at it.

Do what needs to be done to not break the rules.

When someone breaks the rules I don't really care if they did it because they meant to or because they are stupid or unskilled or any other reason.

We don't need rules like 'ramping is illegal, unless they say they are sorry and it was an accident'. Refs have a hard enough time enforcing objective rules.

[Lohman446]

When a player breaks the rules it makes no difference whether or not they meant to. If they were honestly trying to stay within the rules, who cares, they failed at it.

Do what needs to be done to not break the rules.

This is exactly the point in my opinion. A runner runs inside the base line, on the edge. He is close, different refs are going to call it differently. It interferes with the throw from home plate. He should have run a little more inline with the bag, of course then he would have been out, and would have failed to get to first base before the throw. He ran the grey edge of the rule. Was it intentional or not? If you don't like the call practice not being in a questionable area.

[hitech]

My point is, would the game become cleaner if rather than questioning intent we simply penalized players who broke the rules, regardless of intent, even if its an accident? I think so.

As I'm sure you are aware, I have always said it should be. When you are hit you are out. And the player should be responsible for knowing when they are hit. Nothing affects the game more than playing on...

[wimag]

I I felt a hit on the back left side of my leg about three seconds before I shot the second player (who my other player also shot). The ref was out of position to verify the hit, and I had no cover

Three seconds is a long time. it is called playing on. If you had no cover as you indicate and felt a hit on you, chances are you were hit. nice uncovered wide open target.

[Lohman446]

Three seconds is a long time. it is called playing on. If you had no cover as you indicate and felt a hit on you, chances are you were hit. nice uncovered wide open target.

No doubt. I had two options the point, or should have had two options. Risk the playing on penatly and continue firing (which is what I did) or signal my elimination, because there was no way of looking without being hit considering the two guns on me and the minimal cover. I risked the playing on penalty if the ball had broken and continued. Once the shooting stopped I called a ref over and checked, and actually called myself out before the ref even got there. In fairness I did not even see the hit after the shooting had stopped and I glanced down as much as I could, I had to reach back to feel it. But your right, the penalty should have been there for playing on - my intent, my ability to check myself, and everything else should have been inconsequential. We are so concerned about calling someone for a penalty looking like calling them a cheater that we consider intent far too much. It was never my intent to cheat (though I did consciously decide not to check you can judge that yourself), but I did violate the rules in assuming it did not break. The refs considered my intent, the factors around me, and did not penalize me - they should not have made those considerations.

[trains are bad]

If the the ball didn't break, he would have been fine. If it did break and a ref saw it he should have been gotten for playing on. Don't want to risk getting called for Playing On, check the hit, if it's broken call yourself out. There, no chance of getting called for playing on. You play the game and take your chances.

NOTHING should change whether or not he knew he was actually marked. It's irrelevant. If a team A marks him such that he truly doesn't feel it, and gets called for playing on, then good for team A that he wasn't paying attention.

If you don't want to chance getting called for playing on don't play the gray. Of course this presupposes the refs are actually doing there jobs.

[TheShark]

Three seconds is a long time. it is called playing on. If you had no cover as you indicate and felt a hit on you, chances are you were hit. nice uncovered wide open target.

If I'm going to judge his ethics of playing on in that situation, it completely depends on the level he's playing at. Either way, I definately would not call myself out at that point.

In a pickup game, *If the circumstance allowed*, I would run to the nearest cover THEN check myself. Resume play if it didn't break, call out if it did.

Unfortunately when you are playing at a high level, the speed of the game does not allow you to do this. Chances are, if you stop firing and try to run to a bunker you'll be lit up before you get there. Or, you make it to the bunker and as you're checking yourself, there's a guy running to bunker you. Your only real option is to keep firing. The ref has a responsibility to call you out.

Ultimately, if you're playing at the competative level, similar to other sports, you have to simply have faith in the ref to call you out. I'm a hockey player, so I'll use that as a comparison: If I'm playing in a pickup game, and I take the puck over the blue line offsides, we'll call it on ourselves and hand over the puck to the other team. But in a game, if I don't hear a whistle, I continue no matter how offsides I am. This is not because I'm a cheater, its because the refs are expected to control the game and the players are expected to never give up until the whistle blows.

This is the problem with competitive paintball. We don't have the technology / skill / volume of refs to accurately ref a game. Paintball will never be a legit sport until refs are able to control the game. You can't leave rule enforcement up to players in a competitive atmosphere, if you do, you get the current environment of wiping and playing on.

I know this strayed a bit from the topic of "intent", but the basis for my argument is the same premise as the OP's: Intent is irrelevent. You need enough refs to enforce the game, to take the decision to cheat out of the hands of players. The only "playing on" penalties that should be called are cases where a ref taps a player out and the player continues shooting. "Playing on" as we know it wouldn't exist anymore, because there would be enough refs to see every ball break on every player. Whether you do this via technology (cameras + remote marker shutdown by head ref?), or having 10-14 refs on the field, one for every player, I don't know. What I do know is that until refs can control the game, paintball will never reach its full potential.

[Lohman446]

What we have now may work if the refs would just call the penalties- this situation was unique in getting away with it, and my action would not have changed regardless of where the ref was in position. Had the ref been standing there and seen the break, and I had continued to fire, he should have pulled me and another player at that time. The penalty would have been justified. By not stopping to check myself, which I could not have done competetivly, I chose to take that risk. If the ref had seen the hit he should have never questioned intent, he should have pulled me and another player.

Refs question too often intent... it results in a lack of penalties that should be there.

Edit: in football linemen are taught to hold there hands a certain way to make it obvious they are not holding - they go above and beyond to make it apperant they are not cheating. Sometimes they get sloppy and get called wehn no foul took place, sometimes they get lucky. But you never see a ref ask a player "did you mean to"

[TheTramp]

Oops, I didn't feel the hit. Tough, the hit was in an objectively defined area determined to be reasonably feelable. Wear thinner clothes if you have to, pay more attention or have you teammates check you better. Staying within the rules is part of playing.

[Lohman446]

And you know what, sometimes you are going to get penalized when you had no intent to break the rules, because you still did. Its going to happen, it happens in other sports. We have just made it to much if you get penalized you are a cheater, because we have considered intent we also label.