Penalties in paintball and intent

[Lee]

i don't worry about intent. i'm not a mind reader so how do i know what a persons intent is?you do it, you get the penalty per rule.

example: last tampa NPPL, i called a one for one on a guy with an obvious hit. it was on his left shoulder and he was still shooting. after the game, he came to me complaining. when i explained the playing on rule, and that he had an obvious hit, he said "but i looked!"

do i believe he looked? yes....do the rules say if you look it's not a one for one?...no.

don't want a penalty, then don't mess up.

i also believe that 99% of the time, a player knows they are hit no matter where that hit is. they may not know if it broke, but they know they were struck. 90% of the time, they know it's a valid mark.

NPPL rules read like this: you must check yourself for a hit if it is in an easily verifiable place. if not, then you must ask a team mate to check you. if that is not possible, then you may ask for a paintcheck from a referee. referees are under no obligation to perform paint chacks.

the way the rule reads is that those things must be done in that order and players rarely do it that way. that imho is the reason so many one for ones are called.


furthermore, to me, playing on is "any paintball like motion". shooting, moving with purpose other than leaving the field, loading, calling positions, etc. you act like your playing and you have a hit, then your leaving the game with a friend.

[Evil Bob]

Most refs will make the call if they see it. The problem I've seen with most paintball tournies is insufficient numbers of refs on the field.

4 refs on a field of 14 or 20 players is not sufficient. The problem with paintball is that is it very unlike all other sports in regards to where the action is at. Football... single ball on the field, action focuses on it, same with soccer, basketball, tennis, rugby, etc. With football and basketball, you can get away with fewer refs on the field of play because of the single ball, can't do that with paintball. This is the primary issue with making paintball tv friendly, you can have 10 cameras on the field and miss an important game busting move and never see it. Same thing applies to reffing, alot of the time the refs simply dont see what happened and are unable to make a good call. The only way to catch it all, is to put more officals on the field, as the players as a whole are unwilling to keep the game clean because they believe everyone else is cheating.

-Evil Bob

[KRAKMT]

I agree to a point. The rules are black and white- the one for one should have been called on Lohman. The intent part comes into play when players are trying to hide it. Maybe there is too much old school in me still but if your intent is to cheat then it is worse in my view. And cheating is like pornography "you know it when you see it". Sometimes you make the call without regard. Happens alot- called on the shoulder doesn't matter blah blah blah. The I didn't feel it stuff bothers me less than the sneeky stuff. What if the ref saw Lohman reach down to check and did a hard rub or more common to turn the leg into the bunker. Was his intent to wipe or was he just playing on? We have video of a guy in the back standup rubbing his head on the bunker arms at his side in a tourny.

On a side note the whole point of having recreational paintball used to be that you could play straight up and didn't need refs. People who abused that got a reputation(terrydwiper) is still known for that 15 years later. Now days how many refs do we need to play. its to the point that for a team practice you need 4 teams- 2 to play and 2 to ref.

[MisterBones25]

i had an incident like this thisweekend as well. my freind came to bunker me and i clearly felt the hit, but shot him anyway. why im not about to take the time to check to see if the ball broke or not. in this case it did and i walked off the feild gracefully, but if he was shooting crappy paint and it bounced, my hit on him would count. plain and simple, play on, but be honest about how hit who first, in a tourny this is where refs come in, and yes i do agree there need to be more refs present in tournys, cus the players will more than likely not be honest.

[Lohman446]

i had an incident like this thisweekend as well. my freind came to bunker me and i clearly felt the hit, but shot him anyway. why im not about to take the time to check to see if the ball broke or not. in this case it did and i walked off the feild gracefully, but if he was shooting crappy paint and it bounced, my hit on him would count. plain and simple, play on, but be honest about how hit who first, in a tourny this is where refs come in, and yes i do agree there need to be more refs present in tournys, cus the players will more than likely not be honest.

Not only should you ahve walked off, you should have been penalized for playing on though. A risk you took when you turned and fired before looking.

[SlartyBartFast]

i had an incident like this thisweekend as well. my freind came to bunker me and i clearly felt the hit, but shot him anyway. why im not about to take the time to check to see if the ball broke or not. in this case it did and i walked off the feild gracefully, but if he was shooting crappy paint and it bounced, my hit on him would count. plain and simple, play on, but be honest about how hit who first, in a tourny this is where refs come in, and yes i do agree there need to be more refs present in tournys, cus the players will more than likely not be honest.

[Lohman446]

What about on days where you have been having bouncing paint due to elemental factors or those beyond a players control. In the situation I described earlier I can tell you that I hit both players earlier in the game and repeatedly without scoring a break - I had been untouched up to the point of ignoring that hit. By your theory my team had already demonstrated a better skill set.

[SlartyBartFast]

Not only should you ahve walked off, you should have been penalized for playing on though. A risk you took when you turned and fired before looking.

Exactly. It was playing-on whether the ball broke or not.

Failure to call a teammate for verification or failure of a teammate to immediately respond constitutes playing-on by the hit player.

The only thing that isn't absolutely clear is the playing-on nature of not checking.

Players who are hit in an obvious location are expected to immediately signal their elimina-tion by announcing, "HIT" or "OUT" at the time of such elimination and hold one hand above their head.

NOTHING about waiting or dealing with other game issues before checking.

[Lohman446]

Exactly. It was playing-on whether the ball broke or not.



The only thing that isn't absolutely clear is the playing-on nature of not checking.



NOTHING about waiting or dealing with other game issues before checking.

I agree. There are situations where one does not follow the rules exactly, and deserve to be penalized regardless of why. When I continued to fire everyone there understood why, and I think many people here understand why - it was not possible to check and stay competetive. But I am saying that I should have been penalized. Regardless of reason, or lack of intent to cheat, I broke the rules - and should have suffered the same consequence as if I had known for certain the hit was there.

[SlartyBartFast]

What about on days where you have been having bouncing paint due to elemental factors or those beyond a players control. In the situation I described earlier I can tell you that I hit both players earlier in the game and repeatedly without scoring a break - I had been untouched up to the point of ignoring that hit. By your theory my team had already demonstrated a better skill set.

Too bad.

Hit, check, continue play.

If hit while checking, check again.

If they're better at it than you at least it's another skill being tested.

Unless you're claiming they didn't check themselves according to rules you have no grounds for complaint.

Even if they were breaking the rules. Rules are what you have to do REGARDLESS of how the opposition behaves. The oppostion's following of the rules and your following of the rules are two separate, unlinked, independant issues up for separate and unbiased examination and judgement.

[Lohman446]

Too bad.

Hit, check, continue play.

If hit while checking, check again.

If they're better at it than you at least it's another skill being tested.

Unless you're claiming they didn't check themselves according to rules you have no grounds for complaint.

Even if they were breaking the rules. Rules are what you have to do REGARDLESS of how the opposition behaves. The oppostion's following of the rules and your following of the rules are two separate, unlinked, independant issues up for separate and unbiased examination and judgement.

Ahh - your adding new things to the skillset then other than just being hit. Recall in your bunkering example

Not that I don't understand to a degree where you are coming from. I made no effort to hide my violation of the rules, I made no effort to "cheat". I broke the rules and was prepared for the consequences of it. When the game was done I called myself out. By rights I should have looked down and assessed myself the penalty - theres a pretty reasonable argument that could be made along that line. I did not try to wipe the hit, or hide where it came from, I simply called for a ref because I did not see that hit at first, but when I felt it, I called myself out before he got there.

I think theres a disagreement in what constitutes cheating. Attempting to hide a violation of the rules in my book is cheating, wiping for instance. Not that any of the examples I gave above were "right".

For instance, same day, one of my own players had a ball skirt his pocket. He never felt it, turned and continued firing. A ref came over, noticed the hit, and pulled him. ZERO knowledge by the player of the hit. You know what, should have still resulted in a 1-1 penalty.

[SlartyBartFast]

Ahh - your adding new things to the skillset then other than just being hit. Recall in your bunkering example

Nothing new. Just saying that once beaten, move on and follow the rules. I see we're arguing and agreeing.

By rights I should have looked down and assessed myself the penalty

No. Only judges and refs asses penalties.

IMO, players that call themselves out after the game is finished or all shooting stops should be 1for1. Any found with marks by the refs should be 2for1 or worse.

The rules need to instill in players fear of being caught in violation. Better to take the lesser result than risk the higher penalty.

As for refs, the problem is they are all, for the most part, players and play with the same misconceptions as everyone else. Some don't and do enforce rules as they are written. They're the ones that get the whining. Look at hockey this year with the enforcement of what were previously ignored penalties.

But paintball is different from other sports. The rules are written such that refs are the people of LAST resort for normal game related calls and should only be involved in issuing penalties. Unlike other sports where the entire responsibility of ALL calls is with the officiating staff.

Cheating is not a failure to follow the rules and enforcing the rules isn't about catching cheaters. Have to split the concepts apart for a decent coverage of rules enforcement.

[TheTramp]

When the game was done I called myself out.

So all that happened is that they got the points for you being eliminated?

[Lee]

IMO, players that call themselves out after the game is finished or all shooting stops should be 1for1. Any found with marks by the refs should be 2for1 or worse.

that is sort of the rule. if a player reports as "live" and is marked. he is considered as playing on. if a player is the last person, hangs the flag and is found to be marked, the grab and hang automatically go to the opposing team.

if a player hangs the flag, is marked and there are live players left on either team, the flag is re-hung. that is why "time" is called when a player hangs the flag. so he can be checked, the flag re-hung and the game re-commenced.

thats also why you'll see players get checked by thier team mates before a hang.

i have yet to see a game where a flag is hung and there are live players left on the opposing team. i have seen flags re-hung due to a marked player though, but it's very rare.

[Lohman446]

So all that happened is that they got the points for you being eliminated?

Yeh, they got the points for me being eliminated, I still had one other live player on my team, who after my move hung the flag and got us the points for it. The point is, without that move, our ability to hang the flag was doubtful, it effected the outcome of the game.