Penalties in paintball and intent

[Lohman446]

Would you have called yourself out if you were the last player?

Yes I would have. Don't take that as a morally high ground, I would like to think I would have regardless of the circumstances, but there was a ref about five feet from me at the point I became aware the ball did break and the hit was apperent to me and was going to be apparent to him momentarily. There was no option but to call myself out. In answer to your question in the hypothetical I would have called myself regardless (I am not going to wipe a hit) if the ref's would have seen the hit on checking me or not. In this particular case there is no doubt they were going to see it. Perhaps calling myself was a preemptive move to avoid the penalty - its hard to say, I can't tell you exactly.

[shartley]

[TheShark]

There is NOTHING different about rules in paintball or any other sport.

YOU the player are responsile for following the rules. The officials enforce only the penalties. Same concept in every single sport played in every single country, professional, amateur, or street pick-up.

Exactly - But one major difference - players in other sports aren't chastised for breaking a rule and getting away with it. It is considered part of the game and up to the official to enforce a penalty.

Why then are paintball players chastised ? Because we don't have adaquate reffing. The chastising, at least for now, is completely acceptable, and necessary, because it (besides the inadaquate refs) is the only thing holding players back from cheating as much and as often as possible.

The ideal scenario is to get reffing to the point where players have no choice but to abide by the rules or face a much higher risk (comparable to other pro sports) of getting caught and penalized. Until we get to that point, the chastising should continue.

[SlartyBartFast]

Which is no longer a vague or unclear situation if using the latest PSP rules.

Your obligation is to continue to the bunker and then immediately check.

[SlartyBartFast]

Exactly - But one major difference - players in other sports aren't chastised for breaking a rule and getting away with it.

Wow. Do you watch ANY sports? Hockey enforcers who are always pushing the rules are chastised as "dirty". Soccer players get in trouble with peers and fans for making contact too often or seeming like their acting after hit too often.

Same with all sports that have contact and holding rules. Heck, even WWE wrestling which has few if any rules and zero enforcement has wrestlers become "good" or "bad" depending on their (admitedly orchestrated) moves and actions inside and outside the ring.

[Lohman446]

Wow. Do you watch ANY sports? Hockey enforcers who are always pushing the rules are chastised as "dirty". Soccer players get in trouble with peers and fans for making contact too often or seeming like their acting after hit too often.

Same with all sports that have contact and holding rules. Heck, even WWE wrestling which has few if any rules and zero enforcement has wrestlers become "good" or "bad" depending on their (admitedly orchestrated) moves and actions inside and outside the ring.

You win.. right there. When you can use the WWE to illustrate a point regarding paintball rule enforcement you win, game over

[hitech]

Point taken, but does that really validate the same kind of self-regulation in paintball? With golf its more out of tradition than practicality. If a player hits a ball out of bounds and decides to simply not record the 2-stroke penalty, at the end of the day, that penalty is going to be assessed whether he likes it or not. A professional golfer can't cheat in golf, therefore his supposed self-regulation is meaningless.

Paintball on the other hand, obviously does not do well under this model.

The only reason a professional golfer can't cheat is because of all the media coverage. However, if no one is watching it would be EASY for a pro golfer cheat. If they found their ball in a bad spot a simple kick... if no one is looking. If paintball had the same amount of media coverage it would be hard to cheat also.

[TheShark]

Wow. Do you watch ANY sports? Hockey enforcers who are always pushing the rules are chastised as "dirty".

Yeah, I do. Maybe if you're talking about a Todd Bertuzi or Marty McSorely incident. Anyone in their right mind is going to chastise that kind of behavior, on or off the ice. By in large though, I disagree. Enforcers are a well established and *expected* part of hockey (well, at least they were - with the new nature of the NHL they are quickly becoming dinosaurs). Go back and listen to NHL commentators before the strike. When you see the hooking/slashing/tripping/interference, you hear their distaste for the current environment of rule enforcement, not for the players' directly. (Again, there are extreme examples that any decent human being can identify as over the line, but we're talking about normal play here, not someone using a CO2 tank as a weapon)

In hockey and football particularly, it is the player's responsibility to push the boundaries - it is the ref's responsibility to hold the line.

I'm not even going to touch your wrestling example.

[Lohman446]

The only reason a professional golfer can't cheat is because of all the media coverage. However, if no one is watching it would be EASY for a pro golfer cheat. If they found their ball in a bad spot a simple kick... if no one is looking. If paintball had the same amount of media coverage it would be hard to cheat also.

And they would be extremely chastised.

But think of football where they often talk "he got away with one" or he "had to prevent a major play". Breaking the rules as written and accepting the penalty marks the "heads up" player and is almost looked upon as a good thing.

[TheShark]

The only reason a professional golfer can't cheat is because of all the media coverage. However, if no one is watching it would be EASY for a pro golfer cheat. If they found their ball in a bad spot a simple kick... if no one is looking. If paintball had the same amount of media coverage it would be hard to cheat also.

Exactly! Hopefully technology will eventually make it impossible for pros to behave the way they currently can, which would go a long way toward legitimizing the sport IMO.

[hitech]

The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with requiring players to call themselves out. There is nothing wrong with assessing penalities, regardless of intent. Actually, that is how it should be. It should have always been that way...

[Lohman446]

The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with requiring players to call themselves out. There is nothing wrong with assessing penalities, regardless of intent. Actually, that is how it should be. It should have always been that way...

Exactly - we have just gone away to actually ask, as refs, if the players meant to and not assess a penalty if it was unintentional.

[SlartyBartFast]

Exactly - we have just gone away to actually ask, as refs, if the players meant to and not assess a penalty if it was unintentional.

Woo Hoo!!!! Same conclusion as every other rules based thread:

What paintball needs is well written rules and well trained officials.

[Kwaidd]

this is coming from a old fashioned perspective here possibly and may seem crazy to some folks, but...

what happened to knowing the rules and playing by them? Where did the idea come from that we as players, shouldn't have to worry about playing by the rules...it's the ref's job to enforce the rules, and if they don't catch it then no foul was made. To try and say that we shouldn't have to call ourselves out if a ref doesn't call it for us is silly. That to me is a real irresponsible way to look at a game or at life.

Someone hit on this earlier, the skill factor. if your hit you failed at the skill factor and essentially "lose" and imo should call yerself out. i see so many people talk about "well, it didnt break"...should it even matter if the ball breaks or not? this isnt a water balloon throwing contest, its taking people out with a "firearm" with safe ammunition. If someone hits you, they beat you. it doesnt matter if it bounces/breaks, they marked you and yer out and should call yerself as such.

anyways....thats just my opinion, take it as you may

cheerz

[FallNAngel]

I agree with some of the things you're saying...

what happened to knowing the rules and playing by them? Where did the idea come from that we as players, shouldn't have to worry about playing by the rules...it's the ref's job to enforce the rules, and if they don't catch it then no foul was made.

I completely agree with this. It irritates me to no end when people say "it's no cheating if you aren't caught", such as wiping is ok if you're not caught. I just don't understand the point of playing the game if you're not going to play by the rules.

i see so many people talk about "well, it didnt break"...should it even matter if the ball breaks or not?

Um... yes. It clearly states in the rules that not only does the ball have to break, it has to leave a specific diameter size mark to be considered an elimination. So, yes, it breaking or bouncing can make the difference between being on the winner stand and catching an early ride home.