What does supporting NPPL give to you?

[Lohman446]

I do think div3 prizes are horrible, because frankly they are, but I'd say the biggest thing div2 and 3 gets you is sponsors. I know my team was going to get great sponsors this year depending on how they did at HB this year. I think they should just get rid of prizes all together, or just pay back entry to the top teams.

As for what manike said about top div 3 team being the 149th best team, that is in my opinion completely wrong. There are plenty of div 2 teams that would get destroyed by div3 teams, just because so many div2 teams were either forced to move up or play up because they think they are too good for div3.

I'd like to see finals include everyone for the big prizes But I am sure other D3ers have an issue with a suggestion that might have them facing off against Russian Legion or such.

[manike]

As for what manike said about top div 3 team being the 149th best team, that is in my opinion completely wrong. There are plenty of div 2 teams that would get destroyed by div3 teams, just because so many div2 teams were either forced to move up or play up because they think they are too good for div3.

So why aren't those Div 3 teams that would be destroying the Div 2 teams playing in Div 2? Could it be that they are sandbaggers and are just out to try and cream prizes?

If you enter a lower division, just by the nature of doing so you are putting yourself behind all the teams in that higher division.

[GT]

This F'ed up. NPPL is a private org. Under our current capitalist system they are more than welcome to make as much dam money as they want to. Support for players comes from increased intrest in the sport, allowing vendors to show case goods, and providing an atomsphere to play. This topic sucks!!!!

The real question should be: Do some palyers desreve this level of service?

[Lohman446]

This F'ed up. NPPL is a private org. Under our current capitalist system they are more than welcome to make as much dam money as they want to. Support for players comes from increased intrest in the sport, allowing vendors to show case goods, and providing an atomsphere to play. This topic sucks!!!!

The real question should be: Do some palyers desreve this level of service?

How so? Isn't it perfectly legit under a capitalist system to question what my money gets me? I am not against a profit, though it may come off as such. I do have a problem that although D3 pays a good share of the entrance fees they get back less than 1% of the prize money. A lot of people have paid a lot of money into NPPL over the years? What has the return on that been?

[GT]

What has the return on that been?

Glory and prizes? Meeting friends? Competing nationally? Checking out the new gear? Why not ask the folks who play nppl?

If you don't like it don't join. Seems simple.

[Boski51]

Glory and prizes? Meeting friends? Competing nationally? Checking out the new gear? Why not ask the folks who play nppl?

If you don't like it don't join. Seems simple.

Oh, the old "love it or leave it argument". Didn't work in Viet Nam and has never worked since. Lohman brings up very good points. This is one of the few threads on AO that is worth reading. Let's not try to kill the thread just because it is interesting....

[manike]

Oh, the old "love it or leave it argument". Didn't work in Viet Nam and has never worked since. Lohman brings up very good points. This is one of the few threads on AO that is worth reading. Let's not try to kill the thread just because it is interesting....

But there is a choice. You can play NPPL, or PSP, or just local events.

[hitech]

We all know that "you" don't have to play in NPPL events. That has NOTHING to do with the question being asked by this thread.

The question this thread is asking is "Why should you play in NPPL events in the lower divisions"?

It's a very valid question.

[MicroMiniMe]

We all know that "you" don't have to play in NPPL events. That has NOTHING to do with the question being asked by this thread.

The question this thread is asking is "Why should you play in NPPL events in the lower divisions"?

It's a very valid question.

/Devil's Advocate
Maybe it should just be known as a right of passage for the D3 and D2 players that they know they are bankrolling the lions share of the league fees for the D1 on up players. Like a bad version of High School where the freshman are scrubs and buy the seniors lunch...

Its just another pyramid buisness model.

[Lohman446]

/Devil's Advocate
Maybe it should just be known as a right of passage for the D3 and D2 players that they know they are bankrolling the lions share of the league fees for the D1 on up players. Like a bad version of High School where the freshman are scrubs and buy the seniors lunch...

Its just another pyramid buisness model.

That would be fine if pro paintball players exhibited, as a whole, some trait that I would like to be supported besides skill at the game...

[Boski51]

So true!

So after all this, what conclusion have you come to. Are you still going to play? Do you see this changing the face of paintball? You point out a very legit issue. I wonder what will come of it?

Maybe nothing, but questions like that are always worth asking.

[raehl]

The only way to get a straight number of profit to prize to cost percentage is to get a straight non-propaganda answer from those elite few that hold those numbers. Speculation of the viewer, player, and outsiders means little to nothing of the truth. End of story.

I am one of the elite few who has most of the numbers, a lot for PSP and everything for my own events.

Before I get into why events cost more to run than you guys think, let me get in to why even thinking about the prize payout, especially for D3/D2, is stupid.

First: Players seem to get this thing in their heads that they're entitled to stuff. These events are TOURNAMENTS. When you play a tournament, the prize goes to the WINNER. Now, NPPL and PSP realize that the vast majority of the teams don't have a chance to win, and because of that, they are NICE ENOUGH to take some money from the winners and give it out to the teams who have no chance. They do this by setting up different divisions. D3 teams, and almost as much, D2 teams, don't really deserve any prizes at all. You pay a SMALLER entry fee than the teams in the higher divisions, and the teams in the higher divisions will kill you. Since they are winning the event and you are only 1st of the losers, tell me why you should get any prizes at all? Because you paid an entry fee? So what? If you want an equal shot at prizes for paying an entry fee, play the lottery. The odds are better.

Second: The value in playing NPPL/PSP is *NOT THE PRIZES!* The majority of the pro teams (and by majority, I mean everyone except Dynasty and XSV and maybe Trauma) spend more money playing than they get in prizes. The lose money going to events. But that's not why you play; either you're playing for fun, or you're playing to win. If you're playing for fun, think about how much it costs you to play a NPPL event, and think about how much it costs you to, say, go skiing for a week. They're comparable. And if you're playing for fun, there's no reason you shouldn't expect to pay the same as anybody else who does an expensive hobby for fun.

Now, if you're playing to WIN, your payoff for winning is not prizes, it's SPONSORSHIP! At all levels, you'll get a lot more value out of the sponsorship from winning a national tournament, even in D3, than you will prizes. And that's what you're paying NPPL/PSP for: The sponsorship prize. If you're not playing NPPL/PSP, your sponsorship value is almost nothing compared to what it would be if you were.


Now, onto why the events cost more than you think:

The second you step off a paintball field and have an event anywhere else your expenses skyrocket. I have an event next week - which is even still at a paintball field - would you believe I am spending $3,000 JUST on three tents, tables, and chairs? That's 7.5 team entry fees spent on tents. In fact, on a 2.5 day tournament, on three fields, with LOCAL refs, AT a paintball field, I have a budget of $40,000. *HALF* of that is coming from sponsors. And I even have 10 staff people coming in to work for free.


PSP and NPPL will spend $30,000 on bleachers for ONE EVENT. $30,000 on tents. Refs: Let's use NPPL: 8 refs per field, 3 days, $100/day (this is a low estimate), $24,000. I think they have more refs than that and here's also ref support staff so that goes up.

It costs about $8,000 to set up a temporary field for an event. That's per field. So for HB, figure $48,000 for the 6 fields. That's transporting all the stuff around, storing it, paying for people to assemble it...

I think you can see here that this is starting to add up. And we havn't even hit things like staff, security, permits, taxes, insurance, credit card fees, bounced checks (one of the reasons PSP/NPPL don't take checks anymore), airfare, hotels, cars, gas, generators, sound systems, property damage (paintball players break stuff), golf carts, portajohns, chronographs, fencing, location rental (anywhere from $15,000 to $60,000)...


But, if you think there's really a fortune of profit there, start your own league. It's not like PSP/NPPL have either been incredibly good at running these events. That should tell you something - it's not like we ain't trying, it's because it's freaking expensive and there's no money to throw at the problems.

- Chris

[raehl]

We all know that "you" don't have to play in NPPL events. That has NOTHING to do with the question being asked by this thread.

The question this thread is asking is "Why should you play in NPPL events in the lower divisions"?

It's a very valid question.

Short answer:

Because paying a lower entry fee to win some games and a crappy prize in D3 is better than paying a higher entry fee to go 0 and 8 and win nothing in D1.

D3 teams can want more prizes all they want, but they're not good enough to deserve them.

- Chris

[Lohman446]

Short answer:

Because paying a lower entry fee to win some games and a crappy prize in D3 is better than paying a higher entry fee to go 0 and 8 and win nothing in D1.

D3 teams can want more prizes all they want, but they're not good enough to deserve them.

- Chris

Ahh yes, but calling the D3 entry fee low is a very very relative term is it not? Its far more than I would pay at a local tournament, and the local tournaments I play at have far better prize pools (percentage wise at least) it really doesn't answer the question that was asked. the question is, why should I, as a D3 player, bother to play a NPPL event at all? Isn't all I'm doing is supporting the higher divisions?

[raehl]

Its not about the cash... lets start there. Its about the balancing of league on the back of the "recreational level" players for the benefit of the pro players and league. Thats my problem. As a D2 and D3 player NPPL offers me very little in exchange for the amount of money I hand them.

You pay them to play in the tournament. You don't pay, no tournament. If you want, you can go to one of them Paintball Expos and pay $5 to get in. Same as NPPL. just no playing.

The Pros don't even come out positive on prize money to entry fees - PSP pays out 100% (Pro prize money is equal to Pro entry fees) and NPPL pays out about 90% I think. So if those teams were to play BY THEMSELVES, and have NO D3/D2/D1/SemiPro at all, they'd get *ALL* the prize money.

So because they LET you play, even though you can't beat them, they're supposed to give you their prize money too?


It's very simple:

You can't have a Pro paintball event without Pro teams. But if D2/D3 teams arn't making you money, there's no reason to have them at all.

The only answer to "Give me more prizes or I'm not playing!" is "Fine, you're not playing."

- Chris