Why are mag parts so expensive?

[teufelhunden]

BPS is not parts performance--its the chip performance. Put a mag on full auto, and an Ion on full auto, and lets see the longevity and reliability of the performance.

Your point being? Either way, the Ion shoots at a higher ROF than a 'Mag in field legal circumstances [more on this next..]

Yep, I sure can. And in the BPS arean, the mag outperforms the Ion. And more importantly, nothing besides a one-shot, one-pull is legal in accordance with ASTM standards and Field Insurance policies.

The 'Mag does not outperform the Ion on the field within today's tournament rule structure. I don't really care about the ASTM standards, as, if anything, it means I can make money if I get hurt. Not that I actually play anymore, so it's irrelevant for me

Just because a company wants to sell more of a product and pays to get the rules changed for "their" bouncing marker, doesnt make it any different.

The rules are what the rules are. The tournament series have decided that controlled ramping is preferable to uncontrolled fly-by-night ramping and RT Mag bounce.

LMAO. That's a new one! The "I can throw it away" rebuttal..

Saw it when the Ion first appeared.

Yep, just like the Ion vs. Mech mag is invalid.

Ion vs. a mech mag is not invalid; both are considered semi-autos and apparently a number of people still consider mags viable tournament guns. Accordingly, the comparison is valid.

Or were you referring to the E-mag? If so, Id again compare the cost of ANY of the other markers(like Matrix, Ego, etc) and ask whats the difference?

The difference with say, a Trix or a Timmy vs an Ion is two things; the higher end guns will both outperform and [hopefully] outlast the Ion. Whereas the 'Mag will outlast but won't outshoot.

Wrong. Ive shot an Ion. It doesnt outperform it in true-semi. Sorry.

Wrong, I've shot a 'Mag. It doesn't outperform it [Ion] in true-semi. Sorry.

[it's nice to make an argument with the "I said it I'm right" style, no?]

[Corbet]

Can someone please explain ramping and if its legal or not?

[teufelhunden]

Can someone please explain ramping and if its legal or not?

Ramping is when the board activates the solenoid [shoots the gun] more times than you've pulled the trigger at a predetermined rate of speed. For instance, many boards now have a mode whereby if you pull the trigger 3 times in 2 seconds [i believe it's 2 seconds] and continue pulling at that rate of speed, the gun will shoot 15 bps. When you stop pulling the trigger, the gun stops.

Legality depends on where you're playing. Most woodsball places? Probably not. Speedball? Maybe. Tournament? Maybe.

[grEnAlEins]

Your point being? Either way, the Ion shoots at a higher ROF than a 'Mag in field legal circumstances

No, at field legal circumstances they shoot the same if they are comparable. Take a mag with a board, a Dmag lets say, it can shoot the same 15 bps. In an uncapped ramp, I think the Dmag wil blow the ion away.

The 'Mag does not outperform the Ion on the field within today's tournament rule structure.

Again, get a ramping mag and it does. If the mag can meet tourney standards it will outdo any other marker there.

Ion vs. a mech mag is not invalid; both are considered semi-autos

They are invalid untill you have a ramping mag. You are comparing whether an apple or a radish make better apple juice. It is invalid (and outright silly). Get a Dmag or Xmod and compare to the Ion, and then tell me who wins. Saying "yeah but my aggsauce Ion can ramp" is a load of dookie. So can a mag when done properly. If you want to compare ramping, compare a ramping mag to an Ion. If you want to compare semi, use an Ion and an E/X/D mag in semi.

[Aslan]

My take

This post started off as a post about the expense of upgrading a Mag and has become an Ion vs. the world post...which is quickly climbing the ranks of "Most annoying posts" on my personal list.

The expense thing has been a knock on Mags for a long time. First ya gotta buy the gun...$229. Then you need a barrel... Then ya get into upgrades...some of which are close to "necessary". HPA or an expansion chamber/reg with CO2. Level X. Now you're up to $325-$345 minimally.

But I think it's like that with any marker. I have a Spyder with probably $400 into it. I have probably $285 into a Rebel LE. I probably have over $200 into my Raptor. Over $200 into my Prodigy. Easily $300-$400 into my Classic Mag. It looks horrible when you add it all up...but that's how it works. I like to buy old, used guns and fix them up...add parts that help out the performance. The great thing about the Mag is that all of the parts I've bought are performance upgrades. Nothing cosmetic. It isn't like Ions or Cockers where you're blowing $60-$70 on something to make it red or shiny.

As to Ions...this is the same topic...different post. Somehow...the Ion is always brought up as a cheap, good marker. But logically, it doesn't make sense. If the Ion is so much greater than everything else, why is it so cheap? Basic economics would dictate that it can't possibly be better than everything else and still be so cheap. It's not just Ion vs. Mag...go to other forums and you'll see Ion vs. everything.

What I think it is, is a mutated version of electros vs. mechs. If you aska newb why he wants to spend $300 on a Spyder Imagine rather than $129 on a Trilogy...they say they want an electro so they can shoot 24bps. They want "full auto"...even if they've played like 2 games their entire lives. And then along comes the Ion...supposedly better than the Spyder entry level stuff. And suddenly it's the new "must have".

And what really bugs me about it is...think of how great of an entry level marker a Model98 is. Think of how great a marker a Classic Mag is for an entry level player. Both guns easy to maintain and virtually indestructable. Both could work flawlessly for years with very little more than cleaning and oiling. Both, highly upgradable as your paintball career progresses. Yet all these newbs want bps...they want Imagines...they want Ions...they want shcockers...E-bladed autocockers. All great guns...but unnecessary and difficult to maintain...especially for a newb that has never taken apart a blowback marker in his/her life. I don't know, I just think that's sad.

I bought an autococker and have been fixing it up. I was thinking of giving it to a friend of mine who has bad luck with markers. He's owned a Stingray and an Eradicator...doesn't want to put more than $25 into a gun. Well...he constantly has marker problems at the field. I was thinking if I got him a good gun, he'd be more excited about playing. But now I'm not so sure. He knows nothing about guns and most of the time doesn't even clean them. I think an autococker would be a disaster for him.

[Stealth Fighter]

You just wait my friend. Once a pneumatic trigger comes out for the mag, your going to be outdone by a mechanical mag. Then I want you to find a place for the Ion where the sun never shines. An electric mag vs. and Ion isn't even a fare comparison, th mag wins in a landslide.

pneumatic mag vs. Ion isn't a very fare comparison either.


MMMmmmmMMM, pneumag

http://www.logicpaintball.com/PneuMag1.wmv

[Stealth Fighter]

This post started off as a post about the expense of upgrading a Mag and has become an Ion vs. the world post...which is quickly climbing the ranks of "Most annoying posts" on my personal list.

The expense thing has been a knock on Mags for a long time. First ya gotta buy the gun...$229. Then you need a barrel... Then ya get into upgrades...some of which are close to "necessary". HPA or an expansion chamber/reg with CO2. Level X. Now you're up to $325-$345 minimally.

But I think it's like that with any marker. I have a Spyder with probably $400 into it. I have probably $285 into a Rebel LE. I probably have over $200 into my Raptor. Over $200 into my Prodigy. Easily $300-$400 into my Classic Mag. It looks horrible when you add it all up...but that's how it works. I like to buy old, used guns and fix them up...add parts that help out the performance. The great thing about the Mag is that all of the parts I've bought are performance upgrades. Nothing cosmetic. It isn't like Ions or Cockers where you're blowing $60-$70 on something to make it red or shiny.

As to Ions...this is the same topic...different post. Somehow...the Ion is always brought up as a cheap, good marker. But logically, it doesn't make sense. If the Ion is so much greater than everything else, why is it so cheap? Basic economics would dictate that it can't possibly be better than everything else and still be so cheap. It's not just Ion vs. Mag...go to other forums and you'll see Ion vs. everything.

What I think it is, is a mutated version of electros vs. mechs. If you aska newb why he wants to spend $300 on a Spyder Imagine rather than $129 on a Trilogy...they say they want an electro so they can shoot 24bps. They want "full auto"...even if they've played like 2 games their entire lives. And then along comes the Ion...supposedly better than the Spyder entry level stuff. And suddenly it's the new "must have".

And what really bugs me about it is...think of how great of an entry level marker a Model98 is. Think of how great a marker a Classic Mag is for an entry level player. Both guns easy to maintain and virtually indestructable. Both could work flawlessly for years with very little more than cleaning and oiling. Both, highly upgradable as your paintball career progresses. Yet all these newbs want bps...they want Imagines...they want Ions...they want shcockers...E-bladed autocockers. All great guns...but unnecessary and difficult to maintain...especially for a newb that has never taken apart a blowback marker in his/her life. I don't know, I just think that's sad.

I bought an autococker and have been fixing it up. I was thinking of giving it to a friend of mine who has bad luck with markers. He's owned a Stingray and an Eradicator...doesn't want to put more than $25 into a gun. Well...he constantly has marker problems at the field. I was thinking if I got him a good gun, he'd be more excited about playing. But now I'm not so sure. He knows nothing about guns and most of the time doesn't even clean them. I think an autococker would be a disaster for him.

WOW, your killing me, or you could go the used route like I have since mags last next to forever.

Listed in chronological order, please note this is my mag

Traded A-5 $140 value for rail, valve, CF frame and PF body.

Vert. bottle Adapter .................................................. ........... +$11
Barrel and Sear .................................................. ................. +$45
Logic Mech Frame .................................................. .............. +$85
Traded CF frame and got $10 w/ drop/asa........................... -$10
Custom engraving, milling, and powdercoating ................... +$78
Annoing the frame .................................................. ............. +$15
gas-thru, SS line, shrink wrap, fittings, TL pin, sear pin ........ +$40


So really, I'm dropping $264 cash on my gun, because I'm not counting the A-5 trade.
And I really didn't need the Logic Mech Frame, so I wouldn't need the anno, so you can chop $100 off of that. Heck you could take even more off to build a working mag, I'm just trying to build one of the sexiest mags ever.

So........... continue

P.S.- Shocker are really nice guns, I plan on getting one soon as my mag project is complete, I feel for long time shocker and impulse owners, because a few feel the Ion is giving them a bad rep. and I agree.

[Lohman446]

You just wait my friend. Once a pneumatic trigger comes out for the mag, your going to be outdone by a mechanical mag. Then I want you to find a place for the Ion where the sun never shines. An electric mag vs. and Ion isn't even a fare comparison, th mag wins in a landslide.

pneumatic mag vs. Ion isn't a very fare comparison either.


MMMmmmmMMM, pneumag

http://www.logicpaintball.com/PneuMag1.wmv

Why? Longevity - unproven on large quantities of pneumags. Rate of fire? I doubt you are pulling higher than 17BPS. Ramping? Most ramping is capped at 15BPS. Durability? Unproven, but experience tells me a mag is going to take this one.

[Stealth Fighter]

Why? Longevity - unproven on large quantities of pneumags. Rate of fire? I doubt you are pulling higher than 17BPS. Ramping? Most ramping is capped at 15BPS. Durability? Unproven, but experience tells me a mag is going to take this one.

And the batteries last a while in an Ion no doubt.

The highest I have seen them run is 20 bps.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1296871 (refer to section 2)

Mags have no electronics to worry about, and the system is fairly simple, so I don't see them breaking down very easily.

[Lohman446]

Again, my apologies, I forgot what boards I was trying to have a discussion on.

All hail AGD and the mag. It is the greatest gun ever. No marker ever produced could be better than an automag (unless produced by AGD). We are so smart to own them and everyone who owns something different is an idiot. Theres nothing that could be better for any situation.

[Stealth Fighter]

Again, my apologies, I forgot what boards I was trying to have a discussion on.

All hail AGD and the mag. It is the greatest gun ever. No marker ever produced could be better than an automag (unless produced by AGD). We are so smart to own them and everyone who owns something different is an idiot. Theres nothing that could be better for any situation.

Where in my response did I say that, I think there are a lot of guns better than the mag. I just don't think that Ion's are at all better than a mag, price wise, Ions are better. But you can't beat AGD quality, warranty, and customer service. I think some Ions look better than some mags, but X-mags= THE SHEASONING.

[Lohman446]

And the batteries last a while in an Ion no doubt.

The highest I have seen them run is 20 bps.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1296871 (refer to section 2)

Mags have no electronics to worry about, and the system is fairly simple, so I don't see them breaking down very easily.

I don't buy taht anyone (maye one or two exceptions exist) is pulling 20 per second with zero trigger assistance.

[tyrion2323]

The original question was about why mags are so expensive to upgrade. That was answered. They're a niche market, and therefore anyone who wants to sell products for them is charging higher prices because they simply don't sell tons and tons of parts.

Then the question came up - why buy a mech mag for $500 when you could buy an Ion for $225? Well, it's all about what you want. For the average player, the Ion seems the better way to go. It's less expensive and have more 'up to date' features. At this point, both questions have been given straight answers.

Regardless of what you shoot - an Ion, a mag - it doesn't matter. The answer to the question has nothign to do with which guns are better or worse. It was a question about why things are so expensive. Listen, it's going to be hard to convince people to put $500-700 into a new mag when an upgradeable alternative for #225 exists. But at the price of $500+, it's not just the Ion that's giving the mag competition - it's a whole slew of updated superguns. Old egos, timmies and frestyles, shockers and matrices. They're cheap.

When I have a gun, I find it hard to justify putting lots of upgrades into it, since I realize that for $200-$400 I could upgade my gun; however, for $500 I could get a NIB whatever. It's not just the case with the mags and ions. This is the reason that guns come stacked with everything you could possibly want. In the old days, the entire point of a gun was to customize it. Now, people expect to have all of the features that they would normally have to upgrade - they want them stock. And why shouldn't they? THe market is so saturated with guns for cheap that new guns have to either bring it or go home.

[Aslan]

Force Choking Lohman

Again, my apologies, I forgot what boards I was trying to have a discussion on.

All hail AGD and the mag. It is the greatest gun ever. No marker ever produced could be better than an automag (unless produced by AGD). We are so smart to own them and everyone who owns something different is an idiot. Theres nothing that could be better for any situation.

(In Darth Vadar voice): I find your lack of faith..disturbing. (As Lohman is force choked)

Wait, is there a special thread for nerd posts... ...if so I'm sure a mod will move it.

[Corbet]

Frankly this post is moving into a "Why are mags a niche market."

Why doesn't AGD release anything new or drop prices even further. Automags used to be popular in the early 90s, now everyone is saying, "What happened to mags?"

I know that back when Smart Parts got that patent Kaye wanted to "Lay low" for a whie. Hes gone now and AGD has been sitting around doing nothing. Does Smart Parts even own the patent anymore? How can AGD sell E-mags then, or ICD Bushmaster, Diablo sell Wraiths, ect?