Kosmos thread about paintball: AGD, S.P., and 15 year olds

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  • kosmo
    KaPTaiN KeNNy
    • Dec 2000
    • 1642

    #1

    Kosmos thread about paintball: AGD, S.P., and 15 year olds

    Well its 4 in the morning here in Afghanistan, I havent gone to bed yet, and I have to be to work in 3 hours. So logically, its time for me to convey my thoughts on an industry thats growing up, and the people in it that have no clue how or why.

    First, Id like to address Smart Parts. I love this company. Shut up, all of you, I dont care what you think. They are one of the first companies that has effectively structured their business interests around the needs of the consumer. What the heck is kosmo talking about, you may ask yourself. Well its a multi part answer. It starts with everyones favorite company, Brass Eagle. This company was one of the first big players in the paintball industry, we all know that. Why were they so big? Because they looked at the market they were in and said to themselves, "How can we supply a product to this market as cheaply as possible and still make a profit?" This lead to wide stream exposure for the paintball world. Little kids could go in to their local wal-mart and pick up a Talon or a Stingray, and they could play paintball. The budget market is far and away the biggest paintball market there is, and it always will be. Well obviously, these guns were made as cheap as possible because they were simply designed to be cheap, and shoot a paintball in somethings general direction. This lead to the more passionate individuals up scale in the market, to options like AGD, WGP, WDP, and the next company in my agenda, Bob Long. For years, it was pretty much 3 or 4 players in the up scale paintball market. There was AGD with their mags, WGP with their cockers, WDP with their angels, and Smart Parts with their shoe boxes. WDP's Angels were pretty widely regarded as the ultimate marker. It provided better technology than every other marker out there, in a fairly aesthetically pleasing package. Granted, there were people out there who opted for super tuned cockers that could give these Angels a run for their money, but Angels still owned the top spot. Then Bob Long came along and said, "How can I provide something equivalent to that, but make it simpler to produce, cheaper to manufacture, and very profitable?" This lead to the timmy, a gun that was incredibly simple to manufacture by yester-years standards. It didnt have a wacky 14 way solenoid, it didnt need to be manufactured out of costly stainless steel, and its meaty aluminum body could be cosmetically altered every year, creating demand to buy a new one. This lead to a small revolution in the way many markers were created. WDP started trying to simplify their Angels to get costs down and remain competitive. WGP started offering more cosmetic variations of their guns, and eventually started adding electronics to remain competitive. Companies like ICD and Smart Parts copied the general concept with their respective entries, the Bushy and the Impulse. AGD kept plugging along with an expensive to manufacture product, finding new ways to make it even more expensive to manufacture in an attempt to keep their mag competitive. That was the way of things for a few years, new variations of a gun would come out, and some people would buy them for ridiculous prices. But the world of paintball was still firmly nestled in the clutches of the likes of Brass Eagle and Kingman, continuing to plug away with the theory of providing a functioning product for as cheap as possible. Smart Parts started suing people, people got mad, timmies kept getting wierder and wierder looking. Such was the way of life.

    But then, as if Henry Ford himself were reinventing the model t, Smart Parts had an idea. It was something that industries throughout the world had understood for a long time, but for some reason it hadnt occurred to paintballers yet. They said to themselves, "Look, we need to try something new. Look at all this stuff. Things like ramping boards and infrared eyes are all the craze. People are paying a good premium for these things. But theyre not expensive. Simple electronics like this cost only a few cents to make, but people are sticking them on expensive guns to make them even more expensive, so only some people can afford to buy them. Imagine what would happen, if from the beginning, we tried to make a gun that was simple to produce, cheap to manufacture, and included the items from a high end gun like eyes, that are actually really cheap?" Aluminum is relatively cheap, but the equipment and expertise required to machine it all pretty and anodize it isnt. So why not use a simple aluminum tube to house the components, with a cosmetic plastic sleeve? And why does the grip need to be made of aluminum, thats a fairly complicated piece to machine as well. Decent plastics are just as strong anyway, and are in many ways actually much more durable. So they made a gun that is capable of holding its own with the likes of a $1000 e-mag, and figured out a way to make it cost less than $100 bucks to produce. They dont have to sell them for a grand to make a profit. And they dont have to worry about all those people they pissed off with their lawsuits. The features of this marker, and the market price of it, put it squarely within reach of average joe schmoe, who doesnt even know about SPs legal games, let alone care. Theres also about 5 million times as many average joe schmoes buying paintball guns as there are Dave Youngblood Juniors running around buying the high end stuff.

    This leads me to AGD. Where, oh where, did they ever go wrong? And is it too late to right the ship? First off, where they went wrong. When the mag came out, it was a revolution. Even though it wasnt easy to manufacture, what with its oddly shaped parts made of extremely expensive stainless steel, it was an easy concept to understand, which made it easy to maintain and operate. People loved it. But that was going on 20 years ago now. It was a good concept back then, and it got AGD a fan base. But they ran it into the ground. It didnt have the competitive advantages of guns like the timmy and e-cocker. It wasnt as efficient, it couldnt be shot as fast, and it was a lot heavier. Then the eyes came out, and every other gun on the market quit chopping paintballs. So AGD set out to modernize their marker. They added lvl 10 bolts to stop the chopping. They tried E triggers, but not only did it not work overly well, but they got sued into stopping. They converted to aluminum. They tried cosmetics. They got side tracked by a million and one different side projects like the warp feed. All of this stuff was ridiculously expensive. It was also a huge mistake. Everything they had to do to the mag to make it competitive was so much more expensive than what their competitors did. Lvl 10 was not only difficult to manufacture, it was difficult to implement. All they had to do with timmys to get them to stop chopping was put $1 of electronics on it, drill a hole in the side, and slap a plastic cover over the wires. AGD was trying to put jet engines on the Hindenburg. Not that I dont respect AGD as a company, or the individuals involved. Tom had so much passion for these projects and ideas that it was truely a sight to behold. No other company in the industry could match how much AGD cared about the products they were putting out. Everyone knew this, and that is why to this day AGD survives on a reputation for putting out a quality, if not high tech, product. Thats why I think theres still a market for future products the company could put out. If AGD sat down and said to themselves like SP did, "How can we make a competitive product, starting from scratch, with the goal of keeping manufacturing costs to a minimum" it would surely sell. AGD has a reputation that far exceeds Smart Parts reputation, and that alone is a powerful marketing tool.

    My worry is this: the crazy little 15 year old kids. Tom comes into this forum, asks what people want, and we tell him. And because Tom is a passionate person, he has historically listened too much. The population on this forum for the most part cannot be trusted to provide accurate market analysis. Its a bunch of kids who change what they want every 30 seconds. Even the ones who are not kids, so many of them share the passion AGD has for an innovative product that its impossible to get unbiased feedback on whether or not its a truly good idea. There arent many people on here who can speak for average joe schmoe, going to walmart looking for something that doesnt cost more than 250 bucks. Thats where the money is. Some people look at it as selling out, or maybe that devoting AGDs resources to something like that would keep them from being able to develop innovative off-the-wall ideas that nobody else would think of. But it certainly would fund it a lot better than the e-mag did.

    I dont know, maybe Im wrong. Maybe Im just really tired. But I definitely respect what SP has done to the paintball industry. I hope AGD can bring their own brand of success to it. And I certainly hope anyone who says AGG dies of syphallis. But thats neither here nor there. Im going to bed.
    Kosmo For President '08, '12, '16... However long it takes
  • minimag03
    WVU paintball #19
    • Dec 2003
    • 2214

    #2
    Originally posted by kosmo
    AGD was trying to put jet engines on the Hindenburg.


    You make good points. If you look at it from your point of view, SP has helped the paintball industry more than hurt it. Sure a few companies were burnt when they started sueing, but was it anyone important? ICD, AKA, and so on. All of them were small companies that haven't helped paintball to the extent that SP has.
    My AO Feedback

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    • Steelrat
      I meant to...uh, nevermind
      • May 2003
      • 5375

      #3
      People don't despise SP because they brought ramping boards and infrared eyes to the masses. Did you really think the Ion is the reason SP catches so much flak?

      SP products are fine, its their business practices that make me want to vomit.


      A site for gay and alternative lifestyles: www.zakvetter.com

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      • warbeak2099
        That is my foot!
        • Jan 2004
        • 4447

        #4
        Your point about Brass Eagle has two sides though. Allowing children to walk into Walmart and purchase a cheap, plastic gun has increased the rate of pranks and injuries caused by paintball guns off the field. Brass Eagle certainly had good intentions about bringing the sport to everyone, but they did it carelessly and irresponsibly.

        SP also had good intentions as well as the intention to make a profit. I mean hey, you have to make money in order for it to be worth running a company! However, they too went about their business while causing negative side-effects. We see that today in the examples of companies embroiled in lawsuits and smaller manufactorers who have been shut down even though their products were arguably superior to SP's. Ex. AKA. Don't tell em for one second that Vikings and Excals weren't two of the best electros on the market.
        SP does put out a good product. I have nothing against the Ion, I think its great for the price. However, their other stuff like the Shocker is so reliant on hype that it gets quite tiring. The Shocker is so inferior to other guns of the same price that it's sickening. You have better guns for the same price like the Defiant II and the Cyborg. But players are pretty much conned into buying Shockers instead frequently.

        There are two sides to every story. Yes, these big conglomos have brought a lot to the sport. But they have also done considerable damage. These are facts. The controversy is whether or not the damage outweighs the advantages.
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        • Teamslayer76
          I want my Sig back
          • Jul 2004
          • 480

          #5
          I'm sorry, This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. Really.
          I'm sure if more than half of the people here can decide what a "average joe wants".
          Anyone can, it must shoot paintballs, and look good doing it!

          Also you idea on how SP has cause more growth and prosperty for the paintball industry is stupid. If anything they have caused more problems. Think about AKA, they make the best regulators on the market, thats arguabile. I find it shocking that you would even say that.
          ICD, WDP, and many others were put down under its blade...
          I'll have to take it out to dinner and a movie first. Will it go see AVP? - Halliday On "Will you date my valve?"

          Comment

          • minimag03
            WVU paintball #19
            • Dec 2003
            • 2214

            #6
            Originally posted by Teamslayer76
            I'm sorry, This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. Really.
            I'm sure if more than half of the people here can decide what a "average joe wants".
            Anyone can, it must shoot paintballs, and look good doing it!

            Also you idea on how SP has cause more growth and prosperty for the paintball industry is stupid. If anything they have caused more problems. Think about AKA, they make the best regulators on the market, thats arguabile. I find it shocking that you would even say that.
            ICD, WDP, and many others were put down under its blade...
            Lets not start flaming. This thread has the potential to be interesting. Just cause you don't agree with him doesn't mean you need to bbq him.

            How many markers has ICD sold since it's doors opened? How many has SP sold? I can't tell you the exact numbers, but SP has sold more. Don't forget that SP isn't the only people making profit. Local field owners also receive lots profit from selling SP stuff. Field owners could sell ICD products if they wanted to but why bother when everyone wants SP's products.
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            • nate2k191
              texas a+m maroon
              • Feb 2003
              • 1170

              #7
              I think you make good points as well, however, if AGD made some really cheap products, like many other companies are doing now, where would people go for a quality marker? I think AGD has a pretty good nitche for buyers who want quality, style, and something different. (people who want an upgrade from a tippman or spyder)

              They've made some great innovative products (flatline, 6-pak, warp, x-valve, ult) - I'd hate to see them just start manufacturing the cheapest markers/products possible, leave that to kingman, and sp.

              It will be challenging, but it would be awesome if AGD re-invented the electronic style mags and tactical marker. (just a dream or promising faith in a innovative company?)

              Originally posted by minimag03
              Lets not start flaming. This thread has the potential to be interesting. Just cause you don't agree with him doesn't mean you need to bbq him.
              agreed. this can get good.

              Originally posted by minimag03
              Local field owners also receive lots profit from selling SP stuff. Field owners could sell ICD products if they wanted to but why bother when everyone wants SP's products.
              Local fields also get big benifits from all the paintballs, field fees, air fees that come from many new ion owners, strengthening the paintball industry.
              Last edited by nate2k191; 05-01-2006, 07:19 PM.
              -fully upped mech mag (magzilla) www.havoc-online.com
              -upped 68 mag (class) My Feedback AIM = nate2k191
              -live in peace TK-
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              • ahellers
                USCG "I save lives"
                • Jan 2006
                • 681

                #8
                hmm you make a good point about the level 10. i never really thought about it that way.
                as for where did agd go wrong. well im not sure how much longer they can keep going if they dont put out some more up-grades, i mean look at the MOTM thread, just a guess but ill bet over half the ups on those markers are not made by agd. i mean really id like to give them more buisiness but there are only so many xvalves intelliframes and ule bodies i can buy.
                t

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                • nate2k191
                  texas a+m maroon
                  • Feb 2003
                  • 1170

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ahellers
                  hmm you make a good point about the level 10. i never really thought about it that way.
                  as for where did agd go wrong. well im not sure how much longer they can keep going if they dont put out some more up-grades, i mean look at the MOTM thread, just a guess but ill bet over half the ups on those markers are not made by agd. i mean really id like to give them more buisiness but there are only so many xvalves intelliframes and ule bodies i can buy.
                  t
                  AGD sells rogue and deadlywind the base products like slug bodies, rails, and frames if im not mistaken, but i think logic and some other companies make a few products on their own. I'd definately welcome more AGD upgrades, but they have to see some demand and future profit.
                  -fully upped mech mag (magzilla) www.havoc-online.com
                  -upped 68 mag (class) My Feedback AIM = nate2k191
                  -live in peace TK-
                  AO-TX

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                  • ahellers
                    USCG "I save lives"
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 681

                    #10
                    Originally posted by nate2k191
                    AGD sells rogue and deadlywind the base products like slug bodies, rails, and frames if im not mistaken, but i think logic and some other companies make a few products on their own. I'd definately welcome more AGD upgrades, but they have to see some demand and future profit.
                    i dont know where rogue and dw gets there materials from so that might be valid, but as for needing to see demad for futre profit, no new products = no new profit, at least the way i see it.
                    t

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                    • nate2k191
                      texas a+m maroon
                      • Feb 2003
                      • 1170

                      #11
                      Originally posted by ahellers
                      i dont know where rogue and dw gets there materials from so that might be valid, but as for needing to see demad for futre profit, no new products = no new profit, at least the way i see it.
                      t
                      very true. i kinda want to change my major to engineering/science and try to work for AGD in the future. haha
                      -fully upped mech mag (magzilla) www.havoc-online.com
                      -upped 68 mag (class) My Feedback AIM = nate2k191
                      -live in peace TK-
                      AO-TX

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                      • ahellers
                        USCG "I save lives"
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 681

                        #12
                        just cerious but how many new products have come our sence tom left.
                        i know it would never work but what if ao pooled money and bought AGD. i know it would probably turn into somthing like a trible war and lord of the flys but it might at least make a funny sitcom
                        t

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                        • deathstalker
                          Fnord!
                          • Jun 2002
                          • 1115

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Teamslayer76
                          Also you idea on how SP has cause more growth and prosperty for the paintball industry is stupid. If anything they have caused more problems. Think about AKA, they make the best regulators on the market, thats arguabile. I find it shocking that you would even say that.
                          ICD, WDP, and many others were put down under its blade...
                          Last time I checked, AKALMP chose not to deal with Smart Parts, therefore they stopped manufacturing the Viking and Excalibur. I also disagree with your examples of ICD and WDP. WDP fired a salvo at Smart Parts in court and scored a hit. ICD is still manufacturing and selling markers. Weren't you paying attention when Bushies with PDS were selling for about $220 just months ago? The Promaster is a bargain and slowly but surely inching closer to the $300 mark. Freestyles are becoming quite the bargain as well.

                          I have two questions that should help me understand those with whom I disagree. First, which companies went out of business as a direct result of Smart Parts? Second, how many people own products from companies they claim to have been harmed by Smart Parts?

                          Now it's time to read Tom's thread.

                          Need a new sig pic? Click here!

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                          • jenarelJAM
                            Club Coordinator
                            • Dec 2004
                            • 1611

                            #14
                            Originally posted by warbeak2099
                            Don't tell em for one second that Vikings and Excals weren't two of the best electros on the market.
                            Don't tell me for one second that Vikings and Excals aren't two of the best electros on the market.
                            Haven't you seen the recent 04 viking/06 cyborg/g7 fly poll? Last I checked, the 04 viking had just as many votes as the 06 borg... and thats with 06 borg hype right now, and the viking going against a marker two years newer.

                            When SP put AKA out of business, they stopped me from buying anything from them again. And I don't care if they don't care, I'd rather spend my money supporting a company and gun that will:
                            1. Never break
                            2. Shoot the second fastest verified full cycles with paint(at the moment, 31 bps, i forget who made the vid)
                            3. Still compete with cutting edge, not overhyped markers, TWO YEARS LATER!!!
                            you know you play this game too much when the neighbors stop fixing their broken windows...
                            :shooting: :cuss:

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                            • kosmo
                              KaPTaiN KeNNy
                              • Dec 2000
                              • 1642

                              #15
                              No, I didnt say the Ion is why people hate smart parts. People hate smart parts because of the lawsuits. And the ion gets crapped on by people who hate smart parts because of it.

                              Yes, SP screwed over a lot of people in the industry with their lawsuits. But in the long run, it will be better for the consumer and the sport. One analogy would be the motorcycle industry. Before the depression, there were hundreds of pretty small companies making motorcycles, yes some were bigger than others, but none of them were really achieving a level of success that would allow the industry to mature. Then the depression killed off all the little companies, and the ones that were left over, like Harley Davidson, were a lot stronger for it. Their strength let the industry become a lot more stable than it was. It also allowed the stronger companies to grow into powerful corporations whos well funded R & D departments could accomplish a lot more than a couple hundred guys in a garage. It let them refine their manufacturing processes to even further increase profitability and reduce cost to the consumer. In the end, it was better for almost everybody. Also, I wasnt aware that any of these lawsuits had hurt ICD or WDP. Both companies are still going strong because they are both emulating what SP has been doing. ICD is bringing out guns that are on the lower end of the market competing with the likes of the Ion, probably selling a lot more guns than WDP does. But SP lowered the price of the Ion again, further increasing the need for ICD and other companies competing to lower theirs. WDP meanwhile, for the past few years has been working on ways to continually make their markers cheaper to produce, while still selling them in the high end market. A lot more profit per marker, but a lot less markers.

                              As far as the ludicrous allegation that BE and Walmart putting guns in kids hands has hurt the industry, thats complete bs. Absolute nonsense, I say. For every 1 person that gets turned off to the sport because of them, 1000 get pulled in by them. Arguing that prankster kids hurt the paintball industry to the point of it doing more damage than good is like arguing that when some idiot shoots somebody and blames GTA, it hurts the video game industry.

                              I would also like to address the myth that upgrades and other such parts will be the savior of AGD. Rubbish, I say. Look at the math of it. Average joe schmoe who buys a paintball gun NEVER upgrades it. Most people who upgrade their marker limit their upgrades to something like a barrel and a fancy hopper, or maybe if theyre a little more extreme, an air tank. Also, a single upgrade, to remain competitive with other upgrades brought out by the industry, is going to cost nearly as much to design and produce as an entire gun thats designed right in the first place. So, why should AGD sell 25,000 upgrade parts for a minimum of profit, when they could sell 100,000 guns for a much greater profit margin?

                              They shouldnt, but they are anyway. Maybe they want to because they like that part of the industry better, I dont know. Im not in the company. But it seems painfully obvious to me that AGD has a good reputation, and a good reputation is not something that can be earned by plastering ads all over magazines. If they were to design a gun, like smart parts did with the ion, to be cheap to produce from the start, they would hold an inherent advantage within the niche paintball industry of people who hate smart parts but have little other choice than to buy an ion. Im not saying the gun has to suck, because obviously the ion doesnt. Unless youre retarded. Then you think it sucks. But they could design a gun, with the TLC and ingenuity that only AGD is known for, and market it to the masses. It would be successful.

                              As far as the Viking being competitive 2 years later, OH MY GOD, WOW!!! THEY MADE A GUN THAT LASTED THROUGH 2 YEARS OF UNCHANGING TECHNOLOGY! I AM SO IMPRESSED! Not that I am bashing the gun, I admit that it is very nice. Obviously though, if it could provide the performance that it does, while still being really easy to manufacture and highly profitable, AKA wouldve had the money to duke it out with SP. But they didnt. Pretty much the exact same problem as with AGD. They had something that, even though the Viking mightve been better than the e-mag, it wasnt providing the profitability required to survive in a maturing industry.
                              Kosmo For President '08, '12, '16... However long it takes

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