Kosmos thread about paintball: AGD, S.P., and 15 year olds

[Zygote]

You have your timmy timeline messed up.

1999 - ICD Bushmaster
2000 - SP Impulse, Bob Long Defiant (private label Bushmaster)
2001? - first Intimidators (more or less Defiants modified to fit into spyder bodies)
2002? - modern Intimidator

[kosmo]

Yeah, I was pretty tired and sure I messed up something like that. But its the same general idea regardless.

[Steelrat]

No, I didnt say the Ion is why people hate smart parts. People hate smart parts because of the lawsuits. And the ion gets crapped on by people who hate smart parts because of it.

Yes, SP screwed over a lot of people in the industry with their lawsuits. But in the long run, it will be better for the consumer and the sport. One analogy would be the motorcycle industry. Before the depression, there were hundreds of pretty small companies making motorcycles, yes some were bigger than others, but none of them were really achieving a level of success that would allow the industry to mature. Then the depression killed off all the little companies, and the ones that were left over, like Harley Davidson, were a lot stronger for it. Their strength let the industry become a lot more stable than it was. It also allowed the stronger companies to grow into powerful corporations whos well funded R & D departments could accomplish a lot more than a couple hundred guys in a garage. It let them refine their manufacturing processes to even further increase profitability and reduce cost to the consumer. In the end, it was better for almost everybody. Also, I wasnt aware that any of these lawsuits had hurt ICD or WDP. Both companies are still going strong because they are both emulating what SP has been doing. ICD is bringing out guns that are on the lower end of the market competing with the likes of the Ion, probably selling a lot more guns than WDP does. But SP lowered the price of the Ion again, further increasing the need for ICD and other companies competing to lower theirs. WDP meanwhile, for the past few years has been working on ways to continually make their markers cheaper to produce, while still selling them in the high end market. A lot more profit per marker, but a lot less markers.

ICD settled with SP, and WDP filed lawsuits of their own. Yeah, awesome way for the industry to "mature." And last I checked, WDP doesn't have anything remotely like the ION in their catalog. If anything, WDP has been cranking out MORE expensive markers, though they are rumored to have something new coming out soon. And the analogy on the motorcycles is not relevant to this discussion, since you yourself point out that market forces, i.e. the Depression, forced a consolidation of the industry. In the case of SP, it was a company with resources targeting those companies with insufficient resources to defend themselves.

As far as the Viking being competitive 2 years later, OH MY GOD, WOW!!! THEY MADE A GUN THAT LASTED THROUGH 2 YEARS OF UNCHANGING TECHNOLOGY! I AM SO IMPRESSED! Not that I am bashing the gun, I admit that it is very nice. Obviously though, if it could provide the performance that it does, while still being really easy to manufacture and highly profitable, AKA wouldve had the money to duke it out with SP. But they didnt.

So because they didn't sell large volumes, and couldn't generate the revenue to fight a legal battle with SP, they deserve to be shut down? Thats interesting logic. The gun was selling well enough for AKA to make a buck or two, and provide people with a great marker. What if I were to tell you that a member of the Gardner family is a lawyer, which essentially allows them to file an incredible number of lawsuits without the enormous cost usually associated with litigation?

[tyrion2323]

Kosmo,

I understand your position, but it's oversimplified. I suppose that maturation can be a subjective topic, but I find it hard to believe any claims that SP helped paintball through their actions. I admit - the Ion was a fantastic idea, but that's not the reason people dislike SP.

And Steelrat, forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren' t both of hte Gardner brothers somehow connected to law as well? Or am I just remembering things that never happened...?

[Steelrat]

And Steelrat, forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren' t both of hte Gardner brothers somehow connected to law as well? Or am I just remembering things that never happened...?

I thought it was their father maybe, but I don't have the time now to research it, which is why I left it a bit vauge.

[garto]

Funny this should come up, i just wrote a paper on this. Well the father of the garner brothers is a laywer and both the garner brothers have business degrees. An insteresting thing to note is that from my information, http://www.haascnc.com/cncmag/explor...lumeNo=10#2006 , and http://www.wooster.edu/magazine/spri.../paintball.php, I was able to extrapolate a rough guess as to how many guns Dye and SP produce in a year. Dye makes roughly 24,000 paintball markers a year and SP makes roughly 125,000 a year. Now I suspect that the SP number is inflated, maybe 20% so that still leaves 96,000 markers a year. Which company would you choose to support as an investor? What company do you think has more money to spend on R&D and for sponsorships and the like?

Kosmo what you say if spot on (at least in my humble opinion). SP has become a powerhouse of the likes of Tippmann and Kingman, except they have done it in a higher end market. Sure, Dye produces better quality markers but Smart Parts sells more for less. Everyone wants the paintball companies to grow and expand and everyone wants new technology for less but the only way that will happen is with growth. Once the market matures then the real fighting will begin so we should be pushing for growth and SP will help that.

Look at the home theater market. 10 years ago how many people had a home theater system? Now look at the market, they even sell them at Costco now, everyone is buying them. Hell everyone buys Bose, but any audiophile can tell you that those speakers don't offer the best sound and nor are they cheap but everyone still buys them. They are a company with a business mind and they came up with the idea of the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). Well SP came up with the idea of the PAF (Parent Acceptance Factor). Since most players are between the ages of 12 and 24 most depend upon their parents to buy them their equiptment (this is for all paintball players, not just the ones on this forum). So all they had to do was make a marker that was cheap and that looked good on paper. I know when I bought my first gun I wanted to choose and m3 dragun but my mom purchased the Pirahna instead. It was cheaper but had the same spec as the dragun which is why she bought it. This is the PAF factor that can sell markers which SP is playing off of.

Okay enough ranting, Im not sure if that last bit made any sense but so be it. Too much studying for finals...
-Chris

[slade]

It didnt have a wacky 14 way solenoid

And why does the grip need to be made of aluminum, thats a fairly complicated piece to machine as well.

gah! *shudder*

the angel solenoid is a 4-way, not 14. that was a typo in the manual. its the same solenoid type in almost any electropneumatic marker.

the frame IS aluminum. and its not hard to machine at all. the cost comes from three things: machining time, finishing, and anodizing. they have no decorative milling which greatly reduces machining time, and by powdercoating all the aluminum parts, they dont need a make a finishing pass or beadblast/polish the part, and powdercoating is cheaper than ano anyway, so they save a ton of cash by doing that.

[Teamslayer76]

This thread is full of generalizations. "People only hate the ion that hated smart parts before hand" You know thats not true. I hate the Ion becuase it brought the values of more expensive markers down. For people on a budget like myself paying 1050, for a NERVE then having the price drop to 475 less than nine months after you purchase it makes me FURIOUS!

Also I never said that they put AKA out of bussiness, I said they made tem loose a big source of profit and damaged thier company. They have done this to gain more market share. I can name alot of companies that have closed due to Smartparts lawsuits, patents, ect ect.

Those are:
AGD
ICD
WDP
AKA
There are likley more but I can't think of them off the top of my head right now.

[Zygote]

I can name alot of companies that have closed due to Smartparts lawsuits, patents, ect ect.

Those are:
AGD
ICD
WDP
AKA
There are likley more but I can't think of them off the top of my head right now.

You must have meant to say something else or I'm not understanding this sentence. Not one of those companies is closed.

[RapidTransit]

Going on the home theater analogy... Do I want some $3,000 receiver or do I want a Mark Levison pre-amp and mono blocks. SP put atleast one company that I know of, SP has now put the market in an ugly position. They stall innovation. I have an Ion to see what it was all about I did not like it. I'd rather have a Spyder or a M98 any day. People think oh its $199, yes it is but what now? Oh now you need a freak kit, a max flow tank and reg, get the blackheart board. I can't wait for their patent to run out because they will be SOL :rofl: I would love it to see some even cheaper Ion knock off came out from China and sold for $100 :spit_take

[slade]

For people on a budget like myself paying 1050, for a NERVE then having the price drop to 475 less than nine months after you purchase it makes me FURIOUS!

youre on a budget and you spent $1050 for a nerve? thats your mistake right there.

[minimag03]

So because they didn't sell large volumes, and couldn't generate the revenue to fight a legal battle with SP, they deserve to be shut down? Thats interesting logic.

He just means that SP had done more for the industry than AKA has. He doesn't mean they deserved to be shut down.

In AKA's defense, their sells of markers were inscreasing before they were sued (if memory serves correctly). So maybe they could have became a larger player in the industry if they hadn't been sued.

[kosmo]

That rambling about the cheap Ion knockoff from China is exactly my point. Sooner or later thats what companies will start doing, and the end result is a pretty decent gun for 100 bucks, when 5 years ago you could only get a piece of crap blowback for 100 bucks. Personally, I appreciate that. I hate how much paintball costs. Now they need to get cheap paint. Also, I thought the ion frame was plastic, my bad. It is indeed just the trigger though.

One more thing, I really dont care about the specific crap like saying an Angel has a 4 way or a 14 way. Obviously Im not a market scientist or anything, Im just bored out of my mind. This place is like jail. Take what I say worth a grain of salt when it comes to anything factual, since technically I quit following the paintball scene a couple years ago when those agg (insert a bunch of expletives here) punks came out. Im merely commenting on where Im seeing the industry has gone since then.

[Steelrat]

He just means that SP had done more for the industry than AKA has. He doesn't mean they deserved to be shut down.

The way I read it, he was saying that if AKA had been pumping out low end, cheap markers like the ION, and make more profit, then they would have been able to fight off SP. SP having figured out how to dominate the market does not give them the right to eliminate their competition, or extort fees, by threatening lawsuits that only they have the capability of financing.

[r-unit]

I would MUCH rather shoot an AGD "ion" than a smart parts "ion" I quote the ion because I'm referring to a gun similar to it (low price, somewhat high performance).

If they could make one and PROVE to the consumer that it was higher quality, "better", and also made it look better, it would sell, but they would have to match Smart Parts amazing advertising department, and sell to tons of stores, which would be extremely extremely extremely expensive at first.