Kosmos thread about paintball: AGD, S.P., and 15 year olds

[quasimorte]

ok here is my two cents.

I sell and my family owns a billiards buisness (pool tables and game room furniture). we carry three manufacturers, connelly (full custom, send in your own wood and they will build you a table.), brunswick (who hasen't heard of brunswick), and legacy (new import line from china.) Every table we sell is at least $1900, our average sale is around $4000. now here is a little of how this relates. the shooters, the guys who know pool spend their 4000 all on the table and get a piece of furniture that will last at least 60 years. then there is the middle cutomer, he spends about 2500 to 3000 on the table and gets an upgrade, cloth sticks, a 1000 on a poker table that sort of thing. his table will last about 50 years without major problems. then there is the other customer, he spend about 2000 on a table, about 1500 on a poker table and chairs and about 500 on upgrades for the table or poker table. his table will last about 30 years and still be playable. now unlike paintball billiards isn't changing, the game is the same it was when tom cruize was hustling in a pool hall.

the goals of each of these typ of customers is different, the 2000 table sale goes to the family looking for something for the kids. they don't know how much they will use it and are not willing to spend huge money on an airloom(sp sorry). these are the ion kiddies, they want the flash and they want to play, but they either can't get mom to fork over 500 for a midd range gun or can't come up with it themselves. this allows them to play and still be able to shoot what their richer friends can. nothing wrong with this makes money all around. side note( our biggest mark up is on the low end tables, we make more from selling one of these, percentage wise, than we do selling a higher end table.)

then there is the middle customer, they most often have played before and want something that will last but still have a whole room to furnish and can't devote 4000 just to one piece, these are are the automag bread and butter, they know durrablility and quality when they see it but also know that they will need to fork out 200 for a good air system and probably about 75 on a good hopper so they budget accordingly.

finally there is the top end customer, they know what they want and are willing to pay for it, they know a brunswick will outlast almost anything else out ther and play better to boot (even if we tell them they are wrong they still know this and buy that table anyway ) these are the guys forking out 1000 or more for their guns, they want preformance and they know where to go to get it.

The end result of all this is that more people will be playing the game and as such more people will buy more stuff. that all the manufaturers care about and in the end thats all the retailers care about. now here is where ethics and customer service come in. we sell more tables for the small market we are in because of our customer service. we send people to our competition so they will see this, we litterally incourage them to go to our nearist competitor, so they will see the difference, 99% of all of the come back and buy from us. it is because we carry a better product. we have customers that save litteraly thousands of dollars up just to buy a table from us instead of getting a cheap sears or dick's sporting goods table. this is AGD's place in the market, and they can make a ton of money right were they are.

sp make an accessible product, they serve the need of the ion kiddies ot be able to shoot 20pbs without spending 1000 or more which i think is great, but look at the rep the pump player get at a rec field, people make fun of them untill they show that they can own with 100 ball hoppers and one fill of C02. when the kids that got the ions figure out that shoot 20bps doesn't make them a better player they either quit or practice, which means they spend even more money on paint and upgrades and everything else. sp has had a lasting effect on this sport and will not be forgoten for a very long time. so what if they made some stupid legal decitions or questionable buisness practices, thats the american way. who wouldn't want to be the guy that sued mcdonalds for spilling coffee on himself?

just my say

[kosmo]

what interests me is, what would happen if AGD released an ion knockoff that was of LOWER quality? im willing to bet many people would still buy it, and AOers would insist it is better.

Most definitely, but theyd have to be pretty careful about it. One of the biggest reasons I love what SP did with the ion was how theyve played the price game with it. When it came out it was selling for around 300 bucks, which priced it just out of the low end market. Its features though, were plainly a mid level marker. Since then, theyve lowered the msrp to 199, putting it in the "upper low end" pricing segment. That means that if anyone wants to compete with it, one of the best ways will be to price their entry a little bit lower. Thus continues the cycle of bringing the middle class markers down into the low end. Granted, theres still a lot of kiddies out there who make 5 dollar allowances and wont be willing to save up another 30 or 40 bucks to get something really nice as opposed to whatever crap kingman has spewed out this month, but a lot of people would make the jump.

Anyway, my point is that if SP had made the ion and sold it straight up for 199, a lot of people would just assume it was crap. But since they started it higher, and then moved it lower, it presents the image of being a steal even moreso. If AGD made one that was lower quality, and priced in competition with the ion right now, it would obviously be in the low end and the only people buying it would be AOers and kiddies not knowing the difference. It would still sell, but not like hotcakes. And everyone knows how hotcakes sell. Nobody can resist cake.

[Corbet]

Can someone explain what happened in the fast few years? When I got out of paintball SP had filed a patent for Electronic markers and Kaye wanted to "lay low" for a while, but did they sue everyone? How is AGD able to sell emags online? What did WDP do in the courts? What companies went out of business?

[minimag03]

Can someone explain what happened in the fast few years? When I got out of paintball SP had filed a patent for Electronic markers and Kaye wanted to "lay low" for a while, but did they sue everyone? How is AGD able to sell emags online? What did WDP do in the courts? What companies went out of business?

Tom Kaye "layed low" by not making the Emag for awhile. I think AGD is selling them now because they are just clearing old stock.

SP sued ICD, AKA, WDP, and a few other companies. But no one went out of business to my knowledge. WDP won (to a point) in court so SP, WDP, and Dye now share the patent. Although I don't think Dye receives any royalities; they are just safe from being sued.

[PnueMagger]

As a preclude, I am a die hard AGD fan for the past DECADE. I do own an ION and do feel it's one of the best $150 dollars (other than my first 68Classic) I've ever spent. And I also wish small companies didn't have to go under. But I will not let favoritism block my perception of what happens around me.

Allright... So SP acts like most other corporate entities in the world -- they try to make money. Well guess what people, paintball is an industry and SP is a corporation. Just like AKA, WDP, WGP, AGD, [insert any other 3 letter acronym], etc. Quit your

No matter how you look at it, paintball is no longer a niche sport -- it is becoming a true sport. Thus, it takes more than niche companies to survive in a bigger pond. Sooner or later the big fish will find you. And like every true modern sport (Baseball for example), soon there will be three types of companies. The high quality brand name (EASTON, LOUISVILLE, WILSON), the companies producing for beginners (FRANKLIN, NIKE), and the fly by night trendy companies looking to secure a spot in one of the aformentioned categories (TAG, UNDERARMOUR, DIMARIO-sp?). I foresee the industry of paintball following the suit of most every sport that precluded it. Right now, all the companies are jockeying for a spot in the first two categories. Paintball needs to grow to survive. And when you wanna make an omlette you gotta scramble some eggs.

Just because SP is acting like a true corporation, and flourishing, doesn't mean people need to go around flaming them because their favorite company du jour isn't competing. If the Ironmen stepped on the field with your little rag-tag "tourney" team, would you complain that they muscled you around and wiped the floor with you. No. It's a competition and you were in the way of them reaching their goal (and yours) of winning the tournament. So when two companies compete, one will win and one will lose. If a team has the tape line secured, and all the lanes covered they control the outcome. Well, SP controls the legal stuff (for now) and thus will dictate the paintball market (for now). When their patent runs out, they will not be screwed. Your fooling yourselves.

Corporations and comercialization have historically fueled hundreds of markets and paved the way for them to become permanent. It is the principal that has made this country what it is today. Anyone argueing that commercialization is hurting paintball needs to go back to their cave and change the o'rings in their Stingray. Corporations are the best thing for the sport of paintball's survival. SP is powerful - they know it - you know it - they know you know it - they know that you know that they know that . If they wanted, they could really be some cocksuckers and go around targeting companyies one by one and bury them. They are not stupid, they are very smart (hence the name - Smart Parts ) and know competition is necessary to keep paintball afloat. They've secured their spot and are defending it with a good offense. Either everyone else will need to sack-up (like WDP) or leave (like AKA). The majority of companies have chosen to sack-up. Thus, Paintball grows due to SP's business practices.

Everything in life is either growing or dieing. A sport that does not GROW will eventually DIE. (ie. -- look at AGD's stagnation. They're still kickin', but for how long?)

"Get busy livin', or get busy Diein'..." - Shawhank Redemption

Now I'm going back to my cave to finish my term paper....And lube my Stingray.

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EDIT: Futhermore, I find it rediculous that people get mad at SP because their high end gun is worth less. Smart Parts owes the market consumers nothing. Sure, graditude is a great thing, but not a necessity. There is no laws stating that corporations need to coddle their consumers.
[/lightbulb] On second thought, you're right. How 'bout SP sit back and says, "Oh S**t, Teamslayer76 just bought a new nerve for 1000+ dollars. Looks like we can't lower prices guys.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

I own a bushmaster 2000 in the year 2000 no eyes or any electronic gadgets i thought about upgradeing it with eyes and the latest gadgets but it will cost as much as a new ion. time breeds better products i am glad to see that. if i had 500 bucks and buy a gun now. i will defientle get more now than i did 6 years ago. would you pay 450 for a bushamaster 2000 that was made in 2000 in 2006 i don't think so.


so what to do now. i bought a tac one from agd why? not because of he latest gadgets but because of the warp feed frames and build quality. i mean this thing is a brick and i love it .agd does not need to change a thing after 6 years of buying my bushy i still bought a agd why because there a quality product the ion is that type of gun you give to guys that play once in the blue moon not weekend warriors like me. agd know what there doing and knows witch market there making markers for. you don't need to be popular to sell guns i personal see 6 new tac ones where i play now.

[Surestick]

Personally I think the Ion like most things has it's good & bad points.

-It has lowered the cost of high end markers (good for buyers, bad for sellers).
-It has brought the issue of over-shooting, ramping, & the dangers of handing a high-performance paintball marker to kids who might not have the maturity to handle it to a head (something we were going to have to deal with eventually).
-It is probably a positive thing for fields (higher ROF = more paint used = more $$ spent) but a negative for developing skills in new players (higher ROF = spray & pray = less skill needed).
-Smart Parts questionable business practices have hurt some companies but the Ion probably will help others. Look at all the after market parts being sold to replace the inexpensive stock parts on the Ion.

You'd have the same effect if a car company launched a $15k car that performed like a Ferrari. Accidents would go up, the cost of used Ferraris would plummet & most car enthusiasts would be happy. Insurance for now doesn't seem to factor into the Ion's effect on the paintball industry (keep your fingers crossed & your masks & barrel condoms on).
If the same car company patented fuel injection & sued all other companies using it we would all hate them but a lot of people would still buy their car & their product would have a huge effect on the industry. Business practices aside the effect would be positive (at least for enthusiasts) and those of us who play are all enthusiasts, no?

[RapidTransit]

http://www.actionmarkers.com/ <- I was gonna buy a marker from them.

Taken from - http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech..._faq.shtml#mod

# What modifications should I have done to my 'Mag?


An Automag, like an AutoCocker, is almost never found in professional or amateur tournaments without first having been highly modified inside and out.

SmartParts does all of the below mentioned modifications. You can also have your 'Mag worked on through Paintball Checkpoint [510-686-6249].

Some of the most common modifications:

* Drilled Regulator Body & On/Off Valve Modifications


The gun's regulator feeds an air chamber via two holes in the front of the regulator. This area is often drilled out with four or even eight holes. This increases the gun's ability to refill the air chamber during rapid fire. Without this modification, 'Mags tend to "starve" during rapid fire. The result being a velocity drop after several shots.

The On/Off valve also facilitates the transfer of CO2 from the regulator to the air chamber. A brass part in this assembly is often cut down to increase flow through the valve.

This mod costs about $80 and usually includes the Trigger Stop mod below.
* Trigger Stop


The stock Automag comes with one of the best triggers in the business. However some people improve on this by adding a stop that takes up the slack on the trigger, making it even crisper and easier to operate fast.
* SmartParts Magic Box


In late '93 SmartParts came up with a modification to the Automag that they claimed increased range by up to 15 yards. The modification was immediately controversial, with various rumors regarding its function, its performance, its legality in tournament play, and its safety all being questioned.

An initial review on the modification by Paintball Consumer Reports International was not favorable. The jury is still out on the modification's actual level of performance, but most people agree that using a low pressure, high volume mod like this *does* increase the gun's effective range.

The Magic Box mod costs about $150 through SmartParts.

Below are some extensive net.opinions on this modification.

"The black box essentially expands the air chamber capacity in
front of the on/off valve by about 50%. This allows the Mag to
use a greater volume of air at a lower pressure. The result is
that the gun is quieter and shoots farther at lower FPS. I shot
a lot of paint in rapid fire bursts the day I tried it out and
observed no spikes in velocity."
--Bruce ([email protected])

"First, let me quell the rumors that it will increase the
velocity in rapid fire beyond what the gun was chrono'ed at in
"single shot" mode. It don't see any way this mod could possibly
increase the velocity above the chrono'ed point unless the gun
sucked liquid. This mod should reduce the chance of sucking
liquid over the stock gun, however. It will reduce the
starvation (and thus velocity/range loss) that the automag
suffers from in rapid fire. In addition, the lower pressure
should result in a "smoother" push, so the accuracy at the same
velocity should increase.
[...]
Now to the "Magic Box". I would call it an expansion air
chamber, with a few unrelated mods thrown in for good measure.
It is a piece of aluminum, approximately 1.25*1.5*.5 inches. It
is hollowed out into two separate sections that *do not*
connect. Each of these sections attaches to the gun through a
standard 1/4" threaded fitting. The expansion chamber section
connects through a newly machined hole into the air chamber, in
line with the existing CO2 fitting in the valve body, which is
the other attachment point. The second section of the "magic
box" contains a replaceable CO2 filter element, held in place by
an O-ring. The CO2 to the gun flows through this part of the
magic box. Again, it does not connect to the expansion chamber.
The left side of the main body is machined to allow the expansion
air chamber to slide in."
--Dave Rotheroe ([email protected])

"[PCRI did evaluate the Magic Box mod]. I've got it in my hot
little hands now. Out of 4 stars, they gave it only 1 star.
They bench mounted the mag at 4 feet above the ground, and put a
piece of wood 20 feet away. This piece of wood had a hole cut in
it that was about 8 inches in diameters. When they shot the gun,
if the ball didn't go through the hole, then they didn't count
it. With each shot, they got the chrono speed, and measured
distance. Here is my "cheap chart":

Black Box on Mag Normal Mag
Speed |---------------------------------------
275-279fps | 130.5 feet | 125.5 feet
280-284fps | 132.2 feet | 130.8 feet
285-289fps | 133.0 feet | 129.0 feet
|---------------------------------------

So overall it increased about 4 feet or so. With the Magic Box
they ended up getting 161 shots out of 200 that fell between
275fps and 288fps (not 289, ok my typing sucks... And the
standard mag shot 175 out of 200 between 275fps and 288 fps. And
I'll use this quote to sum up this section: "The decrease in CO2
pressure hitting the paintball will definitely dimish ball
breakage in the gun, especially in temps below freezing when
paintballs are most fragile. Also, another by-product of the
lower pressure system is a slightly [in italics] slower moving
bolt. In a 10-second burst using the stock Automag we are able
to consistently fire 63 to 69 shots. Using the modified Automag
that number was reduced to 52 to 55." [Feb '94 PCRI page 21]
Conclusion of the Magic Box was that it didn't increase the
velocity, no safety problems were evident, "However, the Box does
not increase the range of the Automag by the advertised 15
yards." And you guys can see that. One Star for it."
--Rob Schneider ([email protected])

* Other Distance Enhancing Modifications


"[Paintball] Checkpoint very definitely does have their own version of this modification which Greg endearingly calls his 'distance enhancer' modification. It is basically a tap done into the air chamber, a 90 degree elbow and a custom drilled expansion tube that sits against the body of the gun rather than sticking straight out like the black box. At least as good as the SP mod and a whole lot cheaper! ... The modification lowers the pressure in the air chamber so the ball get's spiked less so ball breakage decreases. ... This definitely does *not* in any way raise the velocity of the gun."
--John D. Mitchell ([email protected])
* Airgun Designs on Modifications

"Other news, I was speaking to Sparky at AGD, and he basically said
that the 8 hole mod was basically useless since there is only one
hole leading to the on/off valve.
[...]
"Also a larger air chamber theoritcally should yield a slower
moving bolt. Since Force = Pressure * Area, a reduced pressure
will result in a reduced force on the bolt if the area of the power
tube piston remains the same. Then since Force = Mass *
Acceleration, the acceleration of the bolt will be less at the
instant the sear is released (i.e. the point at which the spring
counterforce is a minimum). Thus although the overall power is the
same, the time over which it happens may not be."
[email protected] (Charles P Tung)

SP not only made money off of peoples own ignorance (I don't mean it in a derogatory sense) but they are like SCO, lets buy someone elses engineering and hard work and then later as electros start proliferating lets sue everyone and their brother even though the mechanical/pneumatic differences are not even the same lets make it broad and twist the law. Strong Arm everyone so the market has no competition and manufacturer inferior products at a lower cost. Right now the Goverment has better things to do (Yeah sounds stupid eh?) Then to go after SP for unfair market advantages. Dealers may think SP is great with their MAP pricing and all but what they are more interested in is more Stores to proliferate in and gain support of the Owners because now they too are the backers and they think of everyone else as whiners. They don't care about the shop owner, if they have a chance they'd squash you too.

[PnueMagger]

SP not only made money off of peoples own ignorance ...
...They don't care about the shop owner, if they have a chance they'd squash you too.

1) Oh, for pete's sake. Like SP was the first company to ever misinform people. Remember the whole my cocker is closed bolt crap? Heck, the APG avertisements still quote budd orr saying "...blah blah they're most accurate marker in the world blah blah..."
Or howbout jacksparrow's claims that their mrker shoots further/flatter/whetever?
Or howbout rifled paintball barrels?

2) What an ignorant statement. For two reasons: FIRST, why would they crush shop owners who are the primary purchaser of their products. Shops/retailers buy most of SP inventory, not individual customers. SECOND, the have every opportunity to do so, they just choose not to. They could come out and sell at no profit directly from the factory and crush the shops along with most other companies like KINGMAN, BE, ICD, etc.

Do you you know why they don't this...BECAUSE THEY AREN'T TRYING TO RUIN PAINTBALL. I can hear all the ingnorant people right now, [/revelation] "OMG, SP not trying to ruin paintball, I've never heard that idea." You see, smartparts, just like evry other company, only wants paintball to grow. If paintball grows, manufacturers win -- especially SP. I'd be willing to bet a dime to a dollar that they got a few businessmen over there that know how markets work just so you don't have to give us your own rendition of a market analysis.

[RapidTransit]

1) Oh, for pete's sake. Like SP was the first company to ever misinform people. Remember the whole my cocker is closed bolt crap? Heck, the APG avertisements still quote budd orr saying "...blah blah they're most accurate marker in the world blah blah..."
Or howbout jacksparrow's claims that their mrker shoots further/flatter/whetever?
Or howbout rifled paintball barrels?

2) What an ignorant statement. For two reasons: FIRST, why would they crush shop owners who are the primary purchaser of their products. Shops/retailers buy most of SP inventory, not individual customers. SECOND, the have every opportunity to do so, they just choose not to. They could come out and sell at no profit directly from the factory and crush the shops along with most other companies like KINGMAN, BE, ICD, etc.

Do you you know why they don't this...BECAUSE THEY AREN'T TRYING TO RUIN PAINTBALL. I can hear all the ingnorant people right now, [/revelation] "OMG, SP not trying to ruin paintball, I've never heard that idea." You see, smartparts, just like evry other company, only wants paintball to grow. If paintball grows, manufacturers win -- especially SP. I'd be willing to bet a dime to a dollar that they got a few businessmen over there that know how markets work just so you don't have to give us your own rendition of a market analysis.

If you read my statement. They are gaining backers by using MAP pricing... It has nothing to do with the bastardization of their brand. The retailers then will sign onto SP knowing the price protection = bigger margins for them, so what are they gonna try and sell you? I know this from expierience so don't tell me anything how such and such works because I work in an industry that has more BS than paintball has by 5 times. I could go on and write a 10 page essay of these market tactics because I know from expierence.

The funny part is the college educated when they get duped, seen it happens thousands of times :rofl: Theres another thing I could go on about, Business Degrees Americas biggest farse.

[PnueMagger]

Sorry, I jumped the gun!
or the record: It's not like I really endorse their buisness practices. They could continue making their products without have having sued All the smaller companies and we'd still have the same progress we have today. I just get annoyed with the countless posts of people wanting to burn SP for their practices and putting thier equipment down for it. I guess I just got fed up and snapped this morning. But I'm all better.

[superannuated]

Interesting thread.

The automobile industry analogy is useful for me. When enthusiasts run companies they tend not to grow too large unless the enthusiast evolves into a businessperson so that the operation grows into a major company (for better or worse, depending on your point of view). If the "big company" gets too far out of touch with what the consumer wants, it will run into trouble. (GM, for example).

In this context, I view my Ego as a modern race car, my E1 Cocker as an outdated modern racer, my mechanical Mags and Cocker as vintage racers that can be souped up, my 1999 B2K as an older racer that isn't worth souping up but can easily be driven around town, and my pump markers as classic-style racers.

The fact is that the largest group of U.S. buyers are looking for something like a Toyota Camry or a Ford Ranger. We paintball enthusiasts who follow the tournament circuit or the scenario game scene or whatever will continue to want the latest and greatest stuff and some of us will be willing to pay for it. However, Toyota makes a heck of a lot more money from the Camry than VW does from their Bentley supercar. Obviously, that's because most drivers aren't hard-core enthusiasts willing to spend big buck for their wheels.

I feel that is why the Ion is a positive innovation. It provides a lot of performance for a lot less money than the super guns. Sure, it's easy for a Porsche Carrera 4 owner to look down his nose at a Subaru WRX, but the Subaru offers a lot of bang for the buck, and a good driver in a WRX can beat a mediocre one in a Carrera in a road race.

So, cursing SP for the ION is like cursing a leopard for its spots. SP is a good-sized business and is acting like one. Also, cursing SP for its patent lawsuits is an exercise in futility. Let the courts sort that out; that's their job-and we still have a judicial system that's about as good as any in the world, and much better than most.

I suggest that we all go out and play paintball this weekend so we don't wind up like that Carrera driver.

Regards,

Superannuated

[LONEWOLFOO1]

In this context, I view my Ego as a modern race car, my E1 Cocker as an outdated modern racer, my mechanical Mags and Cocker as vintage racers that can be souped up, my 1999 B2K as an older racer that isn't worth souping up but can easily be driven around town, and my pump markers as classic-style racers

Thats excatly how i feel i thought about upgrading my b2k but found out it was cheaper to get a ion. its a great back up for my tac one. i use a qloader now so the gun has really lost it purpose. i wonder if the ion would make left feed and right feed frames? then i would buy one but since i have working guns i don't need or want a ion just yet. sp needs to make a better reg for there gun though.

[Steelrat]

Sorry, I jumped the gun!
or the record: It's not like I really endorse their buisness practices. They could continue making their products without have having sued All the smaller companies and we'd still have the same progress we have today. I just get annoyed with the countless posts of people wanting to burn SP for their practices and putting thier equipment down for it. I guess I just got fed up and snapped this morning. But I'm all better.

Their equipment is okay, from what I've read they use crappy aluminum for their parts, and their tolerances aren't the tightest, but their products seem to work fine. However, their business practices have been so questionalbe/deplorable that I refuse to purchase anything they make. THAT is why people get so upset about SP.

[Steelrat]

So, cursing SP for the ION is like cursing a leopard for its spots. SP is a good-sized business and is acting like one. Also, cursing SP for its patent lawsuits is an exercise in futility. Let the courts sort that out; that's their job-and we still have a judicial system that's about as good as any in the world, and much better than most.

You must be kidding. The owners of SP have lawyers that are members of their family, and more resources than small companies. How is the little guy supposed to fight something like that. Our legal system is OKAY, but if you have any sort of first-hand experience with the judicial system at all, you will know that it favors those with the most money.