Worrisome marker features - what do you think?

[Beemer]

I recently had the chance to test one of the most amazing pieces of machinery available to paintball players. It was an awesome marker, capable of nearly 40BPS. I did happen to read something though in the owners manual that concerned me

If the trigger is not tuned very very carefully to avoid it, and the user has set it right, they can hold the trigger in one certain spot and the marker goes full auto.

When in this full auto mode, if you have not used an obscure setting to chrono it, the marker will rise far above the chronoed at speed. Users have reported 10FPS and higher spikes.

What do you think AO?

I know I said you were on a roll but what is your motivation? What is this amazing piece of machinery of which you speak. Did somebody get in your Cherios?

Dont be bitter cause you are hitting the burn out phase. The Wizard told me I would hit it to.
That was back in 95. I said no way. He just grinned and said you will see its just a matter of time. I was 28 when I started playing. I hit burn out 16 years later. Most of that was hard core tourny bla bla. Dam the flipping Wizard was right. I never Quit, I still play. Its just a bad withdrawal thing. You will get thru it. You wont quit. Just like I didnt. Its like a heroin addict. You will still need a fix when you can get it. How long have you been Playing this stupid GAME?


Now if you have other real issues you are concerned about maybe you can find help.
If you really want to push the TK safety button go ahead but be warned. I did it at lunch once with him and I swear I saw some real fire in his eyes. I dont think he likes me much after that lunch. I have a bad habit of asking to many right questions.

If you have a fight to pick or a point to prove, with SAFETY or anything else I think you need to step back and look at the Whole Industry. That is where the real issues are. Not just AGD.
He put his Name on the Standards and SAFETY first and look what happened.

Peace Out

____________

[SlartyBartFast]

Wait... what's the point of this thread?

Probably to "teach us" something...

Nah Lohman's in a bad mood and let the troll out from under the bridge.

Seriously Lohman, how about keeping the baiting and trolling to one thread per subject? This seems like the fourth one on the same basic whine.

[SummaryJudgement]

Oh, you mean before the RT effect on velocity and trigger were public knowledge?

Oh yeah....laser beams man, laser beams....

Oh yeah, and Tom's right (well, naturally). The chrono procedure was pretty well established with the RT's, but that also taught you how to intentionally produce a hot shot. I never accused anyone I played with of intentionally "cheating" (because everyone was nice all in all), but you'd be a range where their shots would almost be rolling on the ground towards your feet, and then....laser beams

[hitech]

Users have reported 10FPS and higher spikes.

You're kidding, 10 fps spikes. That's crazy. 10 fps over the limit will break masks, leave open wounds in players at close range and is unsafe! All markers that can vary that much should be banned....

[SlartyBartFast]

QFT.

Seems to me some people need to get their medication adjusted.

[SR_matt]

to end the dwell increase = more fps debate, after lasoya was accused of it peopel started testing it, any gun that uses an lpr to push the ram forward into a valve will not get a large jump is fps weather the dwell is lowest or highest (i think the jump was sub 10 fps, this was in PB2X last year)

unless some one could adjust the lpr via electronics you dont need to worry about dwell ramping on most guns
-matt

[robnix]

I recently had the chance to test one of the most amazing pieces of machinery available to paintball players. It was an awesome marker, capable of nearly 40BPS. I did happen to read something though in the owners manual that concerned me

If the trigger is not tuned very very carefully to avoid it, and the user has set it right, they can hold the trigger in one certain spot and the marker goes full auto.

When in this full auto mode, if you have not used an obscure setting to chrono it, the marker will rise far above the chronoed at speed. Users have reported 10FPS and higher spikes.

What do you think AO?

This is a trick question isn't it?

[CrimsonGhost]

Well since we are asking opinion..

I would LIKE to think the makers of ANY marker would do EVERYTHING in thier power to NOT make a marker capable of spiking,running away at the trigger etc.
I would LOVE to think the makers of a marker would make the marker so air tight that it is impossible for a customer to mod.
cough cough ...RIIIIGHT!

But nearly all markers are able to do so now days.
Talented tech and devious owners have always tried to get a "leg up" on other players.
Cockers, Thumbing the backcblocks,
Shocker s/f (shoeboxes) it was the covering the bleed off cap.
RT, self explained and well known ways to "cheat" .
Co2, use chemical handwarmers on the bottle after the chrono.
Chrono any marker with the barrel backed out ...different speeds.
Make a 2 faced bolt for a removable bolt marker...one is normal flow, one is restricted.
Aadjustable dwell from the tirgger, modes, bounce,etc. all part of the new age of electros.

Is it right?
No.

But since NO company has been able to kill cheating or fudging completely ...seems we are going to have this convo until the sport is banned.
You tighten one screw...2 more come out.

[Gunga]

i think i see what youre getting at, Lohman....
in my "piece of machinery", even when i sweet spot it and get it going full auto, its still slower than people with other ramping "pieces of machinery" and when i release the trigger it immediately stops, no extra rounds flying out like with ramping.
and if my "piece of machinery" does go up in velocity, i've never noticed.

either way, the only time i can sweet spot a "piece of machinery" to go full auto is in the staging area, if i really try; even then its only like 3 rounds before i lose it.....
i have really slow fingers so i can never get my machinery to shoot fast .....

unless you have the pressure cranked up, its very hard to get those conditions in-game. i'd be a lot more worried about boards that are MADE TO do exactly what you described, instead of being just some weird by-product of its operation

An RT/X-Valve or any variant thereof can go full auto. However, it's a malfunction not a feature, unlike the various shooting modes on e-guns. Nor can you 'dial-a-bps' accurately as with an e-gun. Unless you have spare on/off pins or an ajustable tank, you can't turn bouncing on or off. Even if you did have the pins and an adjustable tank, it's a PITA.

RT bounce has unfortunately been publicized so much (Zak's videos being a big part) that kids want to 'fix' their properly functioning guns to bounce. In other words, cheat.

[dahoeb]

An RT/X-Valve or any variant thereof can go full auto. However, it's a malfunction not a feature, unlike the various shooting modes on e-guns. Nor can you 'dial-a-bps' accurately as with an e-gun. Unless you have spare on/off pins or an ajustable tank, you can't turn bouncing on or off. Even if you did have the pins and an adjustable tank, it's a PITA.

RT bounce has unfortunately been publicized so much (Zak's videos being a big part) that kids want to 'fix' their properly functioning guns to bounce. In other words, cheat.

hmm
thats a good point, although i think this malfunction is pretty rare unless you tinker with the marker. the only time i had full auto and other uncontrollable issues is when i fudged up my ULT and have never personally seen someone else pull it off during a game.
i definately see where you're coming from though.

[SlartyBartFast]

that kids want to 'fix' their properly functioning guns to bounce. In other words, cheat.

Another important point ot consider. Once a Mag is set up to cheat, it's setup to cheat.

It would be very difficult (I won't venture saying impossible) if not improbable for a gun to behave legally before a game and be changed to an illegal mode by the player between the time the marker is chrono'd and the game begins.

Unlike electronics which can easily be setup to be legal when checked and illegal once the player is using the marker.

[glickstue]

to end the dwell increase = more fps debate, after lasoya was accused of it peopel started testing it, any gun that uses an lpr to push the ram forward into a valve will not get a large jump is fps weather the dwell is lowest or highest (i think the jump was sub 10 fps, this was in PB2X last year)

unless some one could adjust the lpr via electronics you dont need to worry about dwell ramping on most guns
-matt

Your statement seems to defy logic if you hold the valve open on a knock open valve marker such as a timmy, bushmaster or ego for longer via an increase in dwell time you will see an increase in fps.

I actually tried it this afternoon and with as little as a change in dwell time of .5 ms I saw 10 to 20 fps changes in velocity. I started with my ego in the 290 fps @ 8 ms of dwell and increased the dwell by .5 ms and re-cronoed the gun. By the time I hit 10.5 ms of dwell my ego was firing at about 390 fps I even had one shot go as high as 413.


A regulated valve on a paintball marker is nothing more than a means to deliver a predetermined amount of air. If you change the amount of time that valve is opened or the pressure of the regulated air sitting on the other side of the valve you change the amount of air delivered.

[SR_matt]

i think the reason behind what heppened was that on the markers tested the lpr was able to charge up the ram to its full psi almost imedately so by leaving the ram forward longer it didnt do much because teh valve had pushed the ram back and closed off the valve.

i really think it depends on how the lpr is tuned to the gun and how fast it can charge the area it is to fill

i knwo it is some what illogical but i know it was printed with proof and it can seem just as logical as illogical

-matt

[shaunyoung000]

I think it's ridiculous what some of these guns are doing. If the reg is set at 15bps, why go any higher? If you have auto, only to 15, it shouldn't make much of a difference. However this velocity spike is very confusing. There's really no practical application other than to get people hurt. However, most fields allow chrono to 280 only to remedy this problem, giving themselves a type of fudge factor.

Some of the companies producing such "cheater boards" and double switches on boards, need to realize what the purpose of paintball is. And that it is a game to have fun. Too many times have I seen a young player get the impression that he/she should only play to win. Or seeing how many people they can overshoot.

Considering the character of most people, of course it's in our nature to like to win, but to what expense? Running newbies and amateurs away from the sport from blistering bruises? Parents prohibiting their kids from playing because of potential dangers? Someone's permanent visual injury due to high velocity, or even worse death?

Just my thoughts. I remember playing when tournament games lasted close to an hour, and strategy and skill were the elements to be a good player. The game has evolved so much since I first began playing. Regardless, I have changed my play style to adapt as well, but for how long?

[glickstue]

i think the reason behind what heppened was that on the markers tested the lpr was able to charge up the ram to its full psi almost imedately so by leaving the ram forward longer it didnt do much because teh valve had pushed the ram back and closed off the valve.

i really think it depends on how the lpr is tuned to the gun and how fast it can charge the area it is to fill

i knwo it is some what illogical but i know it was printed with proof and it can seem just as logical as illogical

-matt

That would mean the LPR was most likely improperly tuned, you want the lpr pressure set up so that it can apply just enough force to hold the completely valve open. Too little pressure and you get inconsistent performance and beat down, too much pressure and you end up with excessive paint breakage.

Someone tell me if my reasoning is wrong though???