Its hitting the fan over at the guild..

[BigEvil]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/message/1162137995/Punisher%27s+ethic+revisited

There is a pretty extensive list of responses to this topic.

[behemoth]

I saw that.

and lol'd

[RogueFactor]

I have been on both sides of this fence. Its tough to disagree with either side, and I see the viewpoints from both as well.

The only gripe I have is the few that think "just do it better" is as easy of a solution as they make it sound. To me, basic economics dictate that if the opportunity was there to make money doing what Doc/Pun do, someone would be doing it better by now.

I was largely customer-direct a few years ago. It was overwhelming the volume of e-mails, and questions having nothing to do with mags that I had to answer. I would spend HOURS each day attempting to e-mail them all.

I enjoy my free time the same as everyone else and would have preferred to hit the delete button, enjoy a beer and watch the boob-tube. But I couldnt just ignore these people(whether they were customers or not). So, instead I switched gears and started selling to dealers who would cater to these customers and answer the e-mails. This cut down on ALLOT of the off-topic e-mails, and allowed me to focus on business work. But it also removed the personal touch that smaller companies can benefit from.

There is no easy answer. Or an easy solution.

Food for thought.

[RRfireblade]

I would only say that these problems with certain people are and have been common knowledge FOREVER. If your not willing to accept that kinda of service then don't send in your stuff.

I try my best to offer as efficient as possible service. I also can't always keep up with demand. I tell X amount of people to send in work and when it piles up to the ceiling I tell them to stop. Then another pile and a half show up and there you are. Then there are the people who've come to me for many years that I can't in good faith turn down. I had to build a whole other wall of shelving just to keep track of it all and this is supposed to be in my spare time.

If nothing else , I do try and keep in contact with everyone to the best of my ability. In my case I take in work on dozens of types of markers so it get's out of hand faster than you can say 'custom'. That one reason why I don't advertise publically. I may not not get back to everyone each day but I see NO excuse for letting responses go unanswered for weeks, months and years in many cases. Sometimes I will go for a few days away from the PC since the minute I get on I get slammed and can't get off but I still try and get on with some kind of regularity.

Anywho....

I don't know , you know what to expect from some people so don't be suprised to get it.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

It is just sad how things have turned out. Everyone's pride is skewing their opinions and such. Really, the only word I have to describe it is...stupid.

On one hand you have an "irresponsible" business owner who blows past deadlines and lacks many communication skills.

On the other you have customers who send in work and expect too much.

Honestly, I think Doc needs to straighten alot of his stuff out. HIs excuse of "My email server is down" or something to that effect is old and ineffective. You are a business owner. You should not be losing contact with people merely because of your incompetant email server.

Stupid, just really stupid.

[SlartyBartFast]

I try my best to offer as efficient as possible service.

then...

I tell X amount of people to send in work and when it piles up to the ceiling I tell them to stop. Then another pile and a half show up and there you are. Then there are the people who've come to me for many years that I can't in good faith turn down. I had to build a whole other wall of shelving just to keep track of it all and this is supposed to be in my spare time.

With all due respect, I doubt there could be a less efficient way to handle things.

Learn to estmate, get a project planner, evaluate your resources, and track work and due dates rigourously.

You CAN turn people down. Or, keep blocks of time open for those you "can't". Part of the estimate for each job should include possible over-runs. Fit the important clients in the "spare" time.

If you have basic planning, giving ALL customers current status, due date, and possible delays should be a piece of cake.

[SlartyBartFast]

Honestly, I think Doc needs to straighten alot of his stuff out.

Not just Doc.

Unfortunately, not everyone has the skills to run a business efficiently and shouldn't be their own boss.
Without a boss setting priorities and enforcing deadlines, many people tend to procrastinate and put off less interesting work as long as possible wasting precious time on "fun and interessting".

[SCpoloRicker]

As an account manager-type, I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies...

/no, really, I am

[CoolHand]

then...


With all due respect, I doubt there could be a less efficient way to handle things.

Learn to estmate, get a project planner, evaluate your resources, and track work and due dates rigourously.

You CAN turn people down. Or, keep blocks of time open for those you "can't". Part of the estimate for each job should include possible over-runs. Fit the important clients in the "spare" time.

If you have basic planning, giving ALL customers current status, due date, and possible delays should be a piece of cake.

Yes yes, more of the hard line "If you can't do X Y AND Z simultaneously, then you have no business running a business!" line.

Play it again sam, we've never heard that one before.

The fact is, that if it were as easy as you make it sound, every one of these guys would be doing it that way already.

Have you ever done any manual machine work in your life? Do you know how long a set-up you've never done is going to take? Do you know how long it's going to take to build an adapter to mate two parts you've never laid eye or hand on before? I don't, I'd wager Doc and Pun don't, and I'll hazard a guess that you sure as hell don't.

It's not as simple as saying "well, this is going to take two hours, and then this other thing will take three hours, so I have another five hours that I can schedule other projects into." It doesn't work that way. You estimate it will take two hours, but it really takes five, now you're schedule is blown to **** and the time you spent guessing and making it out is just wasted. If you think it is always possible to do everything on time in a custom (IE never done before) environment, you've been working in a cubicle too long.

Some things simply defy estimation, no matter how good of a bean counter you are.

Now, I agree that no one should be ignored for weeks or months at a time, but on occasion, you just need a break from the constant buzz. I don't begrudge those guys a week's solitude to just work, and neither should you. Now, months and years is a different story, but honestly, I think many MANY of those stories are made up on the spot. There have been at best about half a dozen guys total who've done business with Doc or Punisher and been ignored for years, but we always hear about that like it's a daily occurrence (ha, play on words, people being ignored for years is a daily occurrence ).

At any rate, I just couldn't take any more of the self-righteous spiggoting.

Not just Doc.

Unfortunately, not everyone has the skills to run a business efficiently and shouldn't be their own boss.
Without a boss setting priorities and enforcing deadlines, many people tend to procrastinate and put off less interesting work as long as possible wasting precious time on "fun and interessting".

Well, I tell you what, it gets to be a little hard to be as efficient and productive when you are doing two to five people's worth of work. Sure, having a boss and an employee is more productive, you've got two friggin people doing the work, verses one overworked and very grumpy fellow.

That's like saying all Doc and Pun need is an army of Umpa Lumpas. Sure, you could get a lot done, but they're creepy and the candy residuals gum up the lathe chuck. . . . . . . and they SING.

Umpa Lumpas and creepy candy songs aside, I tell you what I do wish I had. I wish I had a nickel for every time some random dude on the internet told me or another airsmith how crappy they are, and how they could run their business so much better (or alternately, that fixing their obvious and terrible problems is "really easy" and they are just lazy for not doing it).

Even at just a nickel an instance, I think I could have retired sometime last year.

[warbeak2099]

That's like saying all Doc and Pun need is an army of Umpa Lumpas. Sure, you could get a lot done, but they're creepy and the candy residuals gum up the lathe chuck. . . . . . . and they SING.

This is cosmic Ryan. I had that same idea in AP Euro last year, senior year in highschool. Except, I just was talking about like blowing stuff up. Nothing productive you know...

But maybe both sides of this argument have a point. Obviously the bean counters don't know about the tech side of what the airsmiths are doing. They sure could learn a thing or two from people like Doc, Ryan, Jay, Pun, etc. But maybe you guys could learn a thing or two from them too? Maybe if you stuck a bean counter type fella with an airsmith, you'd get a succesful custom shop?

[Kevmaster]

I think you have to be willing to wait when you order from Pun or Doc. I love them both. They've both done work for me in the past. I was willing to wait on their timing and their needs to get the job done. I knew that their initial estimate of "3-5 weeks" was going to be off. Little did I know that it would turn into a "3-5 YEAR" wait time (I'm at 3yrs, 4months) and that I would begin and then finish college before I received the item....but I'm not a complainer. I knew what I was getting myself into. I knew it may never be returned. I knew it might be a waste of $250. It turned out to be. Who knew? But I don't blame them. That is part of the inherent risk you take by going into it initially.

PS: I do HATE to hear the people *****ing about Doc and Pun. It really does piss me off.


Kev

[CoolHand]

This is cosmic Ryan. I had that same idea in AP Euro last year, senior year in highschool. Except, I just was talking about like blowing stuff up. Nothing productive you know...

But maybe both sides of this argument have a point. Obviously the bean counters don't know about the tech side of what the airsmiths are doing. They sure could learn a thing or two from people like Doc, Ryan, Jay, Pun, etc. But maybe you guys could learn a thing or two from them too? Maybe if you stuck a bean counter type fella with an airsmith, you'd get a succesful custom shop?

Oh yes, I totally agree.

You give Pun and Doc an anal retentive accountant/secretary/box shipper, and those guys could rule the world. They wouldn't have to deal with the customers unless they wanted to, AND they wouldn't have to do all the work by themselves anymore.

I think if I'd have had another guy that I could have counted on just to do the books and ship packages, I could have made a durned good living doing this stuff full time.

Problem was (for me at least) that I could never break over the point where I was making enough money to actually hire someone so that we could take more work and still get it all done. Well, that, and the chances of finding someone around here who could do what I needed them to was slim and none. Folks around here are either smart enough to do their own thing and not want partners, or smart enough to move away, or dumber than a box of rocks.

Such is the way of it around here.

[Pneumagger]

I knew that their initial estimate of "3-5 weeks" was going to be off. Little did I know that it would turn into a "3-5 YEAR" wait time (I'm at 3yrs, 4months) and that I would begin and then finish college before I received the item....but I'm not a complainer. I knew what I was getting myself into. I knew it may never be returned. ( why do it then) I knew it might be a waste of $250. ( again) It turned out to be. Who knew? (apparently you said you knew in the above line) But I don't blame them. (Blame SP right?) That is part of the inherent risk you take by going into it initially. (Goods exchange and honest business shouldn't be "risky")

Custom stuff takes time, understood... and possibly a year or so regaurdless of any estimate, also understood... but 3+ years, giving up hope, losing money, losing the gun, and losing communication is straight up highway robbery!!! To call that "uderstandable" is just plain waterhead-retarded. At some point doesn't this just become theft? Seriously... in 3 years you could save up for a cnc, master it, design your own modification, execute it, and have retired from the sport by then.

What if you started a new job where the boss said he'd pay you every week, but then doesn't pay you for months on end? How is the exhange of labor for payment any different than the exchange of currency for machine work? I'm surprised we haven't seen a few airsmiths on judge Judy yet.

Don't get me wrong... I understand custom work takes time and an overworked custom shop can run way behind. No problem there, that is the nature of custom work - unknown/new/custom. But seriously... to lose contact with a client for even months on end (when they want communication) is just plain Sh**ty...
I know this only happens once in a blue moon, but this sort of thing should Never happen. Airsmiths.... what would you do if your supplier decided to do this to you say 5% of your orders from them (not deliver stock, not communicate, generally be shady, etc.)? You know damn well you'd find another supplier.

Have some courtesy and have some respect... customers understand things can go way over schedule. They knew this and had the respect to wait for your work and courtesy to be a patron. What customers don't understand is the lack of returned courtesy and communication.

[warbeak2099]

Oh yes, I totally agree.

You give Pun and Doc an anal retentive accountant/secretary/box shipper, and those guys could rule the world. They wouldn't have to deal with the customers unless they wanted to, AND they wouldn't have to do all the work by themselves anymore.

I think if I'd have had another guy that I could have counted on just to do the books and ship packages, I could have made a durned good living doing this stuff full time.

Problem was (for me at least) that I could never break over the point where I was making enough money to actually hire someone so that we could take more work and still get it all done. Well, that, and the chances of finding someone around here who could do what I needed them to was slim and none. Folks around here are either smart enough to do their own thing and not want partners, or smart enough to move away, or dumber than a box of rocks.

Such is the way of it around here.

Haha, good point. Not having enough money always has to ruin making more money doesn't it?

[Piranti]

I know exactly what ya mean Luke. All I hafta do is look at the people I work with

Though there are a select few people like you, Rogue, Tuna, and Mike(CCI) that are quite different from most others in this business. Even these guys will talk to each other to help a customer get what they need. Was slinging emails back and forth nearly as fast as one can IM someone on MSN or IRC yesterday, all to get an order on an exile body updated.

No, I haven't forgotten baout you Jay, jsut have not had much personal exp with ya 'yet'.

Sadly seems like some of these guys that have 'problems/issues' get into the business not fully aware of what it really takes to get the job done. Not to mention if thier product or services are top notch the demand for thier services goes way up. Take a look at how when someone gets custom work or products back from someone how fast they post pictures of it, then all the "WOW Where can I get that kind of work done?" questions in response, then the poor sap who did the work is then flooded with more work than they could possibly handle in 10 years time.

Bad businessmen? Probably.
Bad guys trying to cheat people out of money or markers? Most likely not.
Guys with a good idea, and a love for what they do, but no clue how to run a business? Probably.

Not everyone is cut out for operating a business. Like most engineers, they are happy to sit in thier cubicle working away at thier specialized field. If they could have found someone to partner with that had the right skills in Business management they would still be in business and doing what they love making money doing it, and everyone would be gleefully showing off thier custom markers or whatever.