Its hitting the fan over at the guild..

[RRfireblade]

Actually, dealing with a 15 yo is easier. It much simpler to give them a polite brush-off.

And first thing you learn serving BIG clients is that they behave pretty much like your average 15yo.

Funny. Be sure to tell them that.

I did 6.8m in sales last year , none of that business came from 15 year olds.

[RRfireblade]

While you walk the walk they'll be nice. You'll even talk your way into a test drive.

Tell them your budget is 15,000$, THEN try and get served.

You can't even buy a Chevy today for 15K silly.

[RRfireblade]

It wouldnt be expected in the real estate industry. Now, had you done 6.8m in sales in the paintball industry, Im all ears

Ain't that the truth.

[braaatz]

It is the business person's responsibilty to deliver ON TIME, TO SPEC, and WITHIN BUDGET. The only responsibility of the customer is to pay up on completion of work.

I dont know COOLHAND but Ive got to come to his defense here.
I work as a NPD(new product development) machinist making many
parts for the defense industry.
I have engineers and programmers at my disposal to help me
develop fixturing and proving out processes.
It can take me days even weeks to get through ONE part, and I have prints
in front of me, and modern CNC machines to work with.

These guys are turning cranks on bridgeports doing custom work on your guns,
without prints, and multiple setups to do. Setup time can take alot of time
especially if you have to make a fixture to hold a piece.
On top of that they have there business obligations.

The company I work for does millions a year in business.
We average 95% for on time deliverys, and theres a team of people
making that happen. Sometimes whole orders are scrapped,sending shipment back
months to replace orders which they waited months for to begin with.

Give these guys a break, sometimes i'll have work done for a paintball gun or buy
a part that i could make because frankly I dont want to stay after work to do it.

Yea communication is key, but dont knock them for how long it takes to do it.

Thanks for reading my rant.

[Lohman446]

To your point though...the buyer of a Porsche or Mercedes gets a level of service that he doesnt get at a Chevy dealer. Because he is paying more. Pay the higher price, get a higher level of service.

The buyer of the Mercedes *THINKS* they are getting a higher level of service. The fact of the matter is though, they are not. I worked as a service writer for a Mercedes dealer, I was offered a service manager position and got into discussion with a Porsche / VW / Audi dealer. The fact of the matter is that GM / Ford service is very comparable (and sometimes exceeds) the service you will receive from luxury brand car companies. The walls of the waiting room might not be mahogony, the coffee might be Folgers rather than some gourmet blend. The service certainly costs more but it is not better (either in customer service, or quality) than others. In fact, as of 1997 when I left, Mercedes did not even offer a loaner car program, we had to "borrow" program cars from Volvo for the Mercedes customers.

I actually had a conversation with the regional Volvo representative back then about adding an AWD option to the S70, which was default a front wheel drive car. The reasoning had very little to do with performance or ability - it was actually meant to put it up in price, to outprice some competitors, because people assumed, if you paid more it was better, yeh, and AWD is great for advertising.

[Lohman446]

Must be different where you are then. A friend of the family was the Sales Manager at a SoCal Mazda dealership for 15 years. He left to run a Mercedes dealership, and said on many occassions that the level of service was night and days difference.

Different experiences. You might be simply right that it was a regional thing. Though I have dealt from time to time with Mazda support (parts etc.) and it is not good. Obviously both of our experiences is extremely limited, and may not be indicative overall.

[glickstue]

Actually, dealing with a 15 yo is easier. It much simpler to give them a polite brush-off.

And first thing you learn serving BIG clients is that they behave pretty much like your average 15yo.

I can attest to this, I just left a position as a Customer Service Manager dealing with a some of the largest movers and shakers in the financial industry. They act like spoiled children when they don't get what they want. I got at least 2-3 calls a day from financial analysts demanding that I give them data regarding ETF's and mutuals for free just because they say so.


Sorry, but you'll have to pay just like everyone else does...

[Doc Nickel]

I would like to clarify something about prices. As several have said, and as I've been told for years, I should raise my prices. This theoretically should cut down on the business a bit, but that loss would be offset by the price increase.

In other words, the theory has it that if I sold one part at $50, it would take less time, and fewer customers, than were I to sell five parts at $10 each.

Problem is, it doesn't work that way.

It used to, five and six and seven years ago, when the only way to get some parts was to have them custom-made, but that no longer works. Places like CP and NPS and Smart Parts and even AGD started mass-producing parts, offering wider ranges of options, fancier colors, and cutting costs to the bone. Some even went to China to get even cheaper per-part costs.

You can now by many of the things I used to make by hand, ready-made, bubble-wrapped and for $12.95 in your choice of six colors.

Grip frames are the current example- I'm contantly asked by customers, if I can make them, from scratch, a new grip frame for their gun. Somebody wants a Z-grip for their DM4, this other kid wants an IR3-style 90-degree "space" frame for their GZ 'timmy, this third fellow wants a 90-degree frame for his E-Blade 'Cocker.

I tell them sure, and I give them a price.

Now, I have to take a slab of aluminum bar stock the size of a paperback book, and mill and entire grip frame out of it. Roughly estimating, call it ten to fifteen hours including finishing, probably ten or twenty entirely seperate setups in the mill, and thirty or forty seperate tools. (Five sizes of endmill, three sizes of drill bits, two sizes of taps, probably some oddballs like a keyway cutter, corner rounding bits, a small reamer, etc.)

The price? $300 and up.

The answer? Always- always- I'm told hell no, I can get a used frame off PBN/eBay for fifty bucks, you're a rip-off.

That's my problem- and Pun's, and others. My prices are being set by the big manufacturers, the ones that get half their stuff off of ships from China at sixty cents a part.

My 'Cocker-thread barrel adapters: They do NOT sell at $45. They kinda sell at $38.50. They fly off the shelves at $30... but considering I'm not making ten thousand of them, $30 a part means I get essentially no profit.

Anyone remember the custom triggers I used to make for the old Shoebox Shockers? I was literally the only game in town for a while, and my complete kit- which included a new microswitch and conversion parts- was $60. And they sold like hotcakes. I made and sold- by hand, no CNC used- probably two to four hundred kits and maybe another hundred or so seperate triggers.

I now charge- or would- around $50 to $60 for a single custom-made trigger. I might easily have two hours plus materials into it. I'm not making $30 an hour, I'm making about $10, with the rest going to utilities and tooling. (End mills don't stay sharp forever- each job has to at least partially "pay" for the mill's replacement cost.)

Suffice to say I don't make custom triggers anymore. There's three dozen companies that now make dozens of trigger styles using CNC equipment, and selling them for $35 with a 120% profit margin. They'll sell at $35 to $45 all day long. They don't sell at $60 to $70, unless the company has some overhyped marketing and the thing's made with a bunch of gimmickry like carbon fiber and a fifty-cent RC car bearing.

The market as a whole determines my prices, and since that market is driven by mass-production prices, I can't compete.

I've had to find other venues, like my T-Shirts, in order to stay in business, and even then I've been told that my prices are "too high"- in fact, right here on this board I was told that a person wasn't going to buy a shirt, because $21.95 was 'too expensive" compared to other shirts on the market. (Typically for $18.95 and $19.95, and shirts printed in massive quantities in China and Indonesia. I'm making a couple of bucks on a shirt, they're making $13 per shirt.)

So it boils down to sell something at a low price, or sell nothing at all at a higher price. There really is no in between. I've tried, and the market has spoken.

Doc.

[Lohman446]

Doc... don't take it as an insult, anything in this.

When I replace say, a stabilizer link on a GM product I could theoretically make the long bushing on the lathe, find a source for the neoprene bushings, buy the long bolt from the hardware store, as well as the nuts and washers. Or I could pick up the economy box and pay $3 (or whatever the number is, its low) for one, or even use a Moog one for $12. Guess what one I am going to do.

When I need a king pin for a 1927 Twin City tractor... guess what that lathe is looking mighty good all of the sudden.

What am I talking about? The term custom shop means exactly that. You offer things only limited by machinery, time, and the customer's pocketbook. Custom shops cannot compete with mass runs making the same product, its not there strength. On the same hand, the big boys have no desire to compete with you. That Z-grip for the DM4... noone makes one (I assume). You are the only game in town, well you, Punishers, Luke, etc. and local machine shops. Most local machine shops are even going to scoff at one ofs, and surely don't have the expertise you or the other paintball specialists do. I highly doubt SP / NPS / Etc. are going to use there resources to make one, or even a thousand.

If custom shops insist on competing head to head with the big boys, well you have a problem. The advantage is you can see a need and fill it quicker than they can. You just have to stay ahead of the curve on new ideas, and accept they are going to push there way into the ones that are long term (like if your DM Z-grip became popular).

Trying to compete with them is only going to cause you stress. Someone wants special grip frame, then they can pay the $300 for one. If its too much for them, well they apparently were not looking for anything special or custom. Someone telling you "I can get one on E-bay for..." obviously should not have contacted a custom shop.

It does not seem to me you are lacking for work. Sure prices have to come down, when you need the work. If you have so much work you cannot see the end of it, your prices are too low, the market would bear more, you would have less headaches and less backload and perhaps get the better paying jobs. Yes, if I am going to spend $300+/- for a frame, I expect great turn around, and obviously want something so custom price is not really an issue.

[Doc Nickel]

You offer things only limited by machinery, time, and the customer's pocketbook. Custom shops cannot compete with mass runs making the same product, its not there strength.

-I know, and I agree. But that's not the problem.

The problem is that the price of those parts IS set by the "big boys". Well, the big boys and the aftermarket (used.)

My barrel adapters. The market has said they'll pay about $38, and not a dollar more. At $40 and $45, I can only assume they decide it's more worthwhile to buy a used Twist-lock barrel off eBay for the same price.

The grip frames I mentioned- the customer sees used and replacement frames all over the place for $50 and $100, or even $150. I quote $300, so I'm obviously completely out of the ball park, and so I'm clearly trying to scam you.

The average customer has albsolutely no idea what it takes to make a grip frame. He knows that WDP will sell you one for $135.98, and that he can get ones used off PBN for $55. Why the hell should the ones I make cost $300?!?

He doesn't know the difference between a CNC and a manual Bridgeport. He has no idea of the difference between measuring and machining a single one-off part manually, and a big shop that has three professional draftsmen coding up the program for a CNC. He doesn't know the difference between making one part by hand, and the economies of scale involved with automatically producing ten thousand of the same item using high-speed computerized equipment.

All he knows is that he can buy a used frame for fifty bucks, and I'm charging $300.

THAT is the problem.

... Well, one of them, anyway.

Doc.

[CoolHand]

Doc... don't take it as an insult, anything in this.

When I replace say, a stabilizer link on a GM product I could theoretically make the long bushing on the lathe, find a source for the neoprene bushings, buy the long bolt from the hardware store, as well as the nuts and washers. Or I could pick up the economy box and pay $3 (or whatever the number is, its low) for one, or even use a Moog one for $12. Guess what one I am going to do.

When I need a king pin for a 1927 Twin City tractor... guess what that lathe is looking mighty good all of the sudden.

What am I talking about? The term custom shop means exactly that. You offer things only limited by machinery, time, and the customer's pocketbook. Custom shops cannot compete with mass runs making the same product, its not there strength. On the same hand, the big boys have no desire to compete with you. That Z-grip for the DM4... noone makes one (I assume). You are the only game in town, well you, Punishers, Luke, etc. and local machine shops. Most local machine shops are even going to scoff at one ofs, and surely don't have the expertise you or the other paintball specialists do. I highly doubt SP / NPS / Etc. are going to use there resources to make one, or even a thousand.

If custom shops insist on competing head to head with the big boys, well you have a problem. The advantage is you can see a need and fill it quicker than they can. You just have to stay ahead of the curve on new ideas, and accept they are going to push there way into the ones that are long term (like if your DM Z-grip became popular).

Trying to compete with them is only going to cause you stress. Someone wants special grip frame, then they can pay the $300 for one. If its too much for them, well they apparently were not looking for anything special or custom. Someone telling you "I can get one on E-bay for..." obviously should not have contacted a custom shop.

It does not seem to me you are lacking for work. Sure prices have to come down, when you need the work. If you have so much work you cannot see the end of it, your prices are too low, the market would bear more, you would have less headaches and less backload and perhaps get the better paying jobs. Yes, if I am going to spend $300+/- for a frame, I expect great turn around, and obviously want something so custom price is not really an issue.

The big problem with all that (which does make good logical sense) is that people in PB (by and large) do not work on logic or reason very often. They WANT a ZGrip for a DM4, they can't buy that anywhere, but they see an AGD ZGrip which is a totally different animal for $95, and figure that one made by hand just for them should be the same price or cheaper. The fact that they can't get what they want anywhere else for any price doesn't ever enter into it. There is no logic or reason at work with a large part of our customer base.

So that's it in a nutshell. Doc isn't trying to compete with CP or NPS or even AGD, but he's being forced into it by the inability of the majority of the customer base to differentiate between "one of a kind, made by hand just for you", and "one of a billion, cut by a kid with a cheap machine in China".

We are all truly in deep doodoo when the youth of our sport doesn't understand and/or doesn't care that there is a huge difference between large scale manufacturing and true hand craftsmanship. It makes me sad just thinking about it actually.

EDIT: Doc beat me to the punch. Man that guy has fast fingers.

[benzy2]

I guess the real logical thing to do would be to move to a different market that is full of people that are logical. If the pb market is full of those who want the best for the least and thats all you get why put yourself through the trouble. I love every person who makes custom parts. I wish we had more. But I dont wish someone to have the headache of dealing with 15 year olds over every issue where the only right answer is to have made the part yeterday by ESP and shipped it out with a gift certificate.

As for the cocker barrel adapters. If they arent worth your time dont make them. If you end up getting screwed over them why make them? You obviously seem to have a lot of people looking for other work so why "waste" time on a project that makes you 10 bucks an hour? If enough people realize they want them they will pay the extra price to get them.

I know you have prob looked into this way way more than I can imagine but I would step back and look at where your money is being made. Take that part of your service and scale it up. Take the rest and scale it way down. Those guys who run off 1000 triggers in a day dont spend time designing single items that take a ton of design time and then only run off a few parts. They take the machines they have and use them to their fullest. If I were you I would look at things like the cocker adapters and such that are marginal in returns and decide if they are worth the time you give them.

If you can make more money doing a single big project than you can running multiple small prjects why keep the small ones? I feel for ever person who has good intentions out there but you have to adapt to survive. Others saw a new market for high number mass produced parts. You cant compete there so dont even waste time thinking about it. Even if adapting means you cut paintball all but out of the picture you hav to do what you have to do.

Ill be honest my one real dream in life is to run a machine shop. It really is. It is what I plan to do actually when I retire (a long long long time from now) as a thing to keep me busy. I would love to do it today but with the pay numbers I hear and all the stories Ill be honest I dont see what keeps you guys there. I just cant see the motivation to stay in the paintball field. There has to be a better market doesnt there? With how huge the car/motorcycle stuff has become I would think learning how to make many fairly custom parts there would pay off well, at least at the time being.

I do wish all you guys who have posted from a machinist side all the luck in the world.

[Lohman446]

Hmmm....

Obviously I do not know any of your businesses, I'm not there looking at cash flow or work loads.

That being said if you have so much business that you are months (or years) behind it strikes me that you have more work than you need. Lowering prices and trying to compete for every job is a necessity when you do not have enough work for tomorrow, or in your business maybe next week or month.

At my shop oil changes are $34 - thats price. For the record, at that amount, I am making VERY little on them. People whine about $9.95 pr $19.95 oil changes all day. I explain to them simply that I can't do them for that price, and they either pay my price or go to the quick lube that employs minimally experienced people (generally). I still do a fair share of car oil changes.

I do a lot of RV oil changes (I put in a BIG hoist a few years ago). There right in the $100 range and I actually make reasonable labor off them. Guess what, the quick lube does not.

I hear a few people tell me something along the lines of parts at Autozone being cheaper (and they are). If explaining to them lack of quality does not help, I have been known to suggest they have autozone install them....

That being said, on weeks when I see spare technician time, even though I don't run specials, estimates tend to be better than on weeks I have too much work.

For someone to compare the price of a AGD Z-grip and expect there custom one of to be similarly priced (and to have such things happen often) tells me they need educated. You are good with words, how about a simple form type letter you can pull out that explains the difference between one ofs and runs in the 100s or 1000s

Your prices are what they are. As long as you, Punishers, Luke and others who make custom parts don't start the price war game (I am not suggesting price fixing, I am simply suggesting none of you ever go "well I can do this cheaper if I disvalue my labor, service) what choice does someone who wants something custom have? Pay the price, or don't get it. It seems, from an outsider view, you could do with less work.

Terribly unfair I understand comparing a necessity (auto maintenance) to a want (paintball). However, I think the idea still stands. If you have more work than you can get done in a reasonable time frame, you have plenty and can afford to turn some down through pricing. Obviously there is a balance point somewhere there.

[Pneumagger]

He doesn't know the difference between a CNC and a manual Bridgeport. He has no idea of the difference between measuring and machining a single one-off part manually, and a big shop that has three professional draftsmen coding up the program for a CNC. He doesn't know the difference between making one part by hand, and the economies of scale involved with automatically producing ten thousand of the same item using high-speed computerized equipment.

Clearly many consumers only know about price and competition. However you know why the prices are different... less manual time spent on tool changing, measuring, scribing, centering, cranking, etc. I believe your only option to stay competitive is a medium size CNC machine with ATC. It would probably triple your output leaving you a little extra time to hand do those truely custom things.

Honestly, if I had a DMframe to measure for reference, I could code up the CNC in 4-5hours (CAD design, CAM inporting, Tool loading) then push the start button and work on something by hand for 2 hours or so. Comeback and hand finish the part for another 2 hours. So about 1 Day of work? (allbeit, it would take about a week with all the other projcts running)

But the beauty of CNC isn't the lack of physical work required... it comes when all the little AGG fanboi are pounding down your door. Tell them the same price quote which may please them. Then just push a button and run the saved part file off the computer. Now every 2nd+ frame/part you make has a huge price margin.

I know I am preaching to the choir here, you are a great machinist and know all the in' and outs of the business. I don't need to educate you about ANYTHING in this business, as so many seem to try to do. But I have to ask... why has a great machinist such as Doc Nickel Not at least purchased a medium-small CNC conrolled mill, much less a full blown Medium CNC with ATC and 4th axis? The quality can be the same, you can program to make it look however in the same cutting time, the inital cost can easily be offset by bank loans until the mill become financially productive, and when people come after your product is seen (where you get all business anyhow) reproduction time is nearly halved.

Just think if had that full CNC setup running all the barrel adapters, triggers, complex shaped customs what time it would free up for you. You've long since made a great for yourself and the quality you produce, which is what is the difficult part. Now all you gotta do is pump out the small stuff for quick cash versus time kinda thing.

[BigEvil]

-I know, and I agree. But that's not the problem.

The problem is that the price of those parts IS set by the "big boys". Well, the big boys and the aftermarket (used.)

We come to you when we cannot get something that the 'big boys' make. I have absolutely no problem paying top dollar for custom work. Those barrels you cut into Freak tips for me: AWESOME. That Carter barrel you rethreaded for me? How many of those things are still out there? Those are things that I cannot get or have done elsewhere and IMO should be what you are focusing on. If you werent so constantly swamped I would be sending you a steady stream of custom work. It's money well spent.