Guns, guns, guns

[DevilMan]

Very Good Points Bryce!!!!

And I would agree with you on most of them. I do not feel that FA weapons are needed. But I also feel that anything other than pump markers aren't needed to have a good time. But when you start justifying the NEED for a FA firearm that gives credence to Why do you need a rifle??? Why a shotgun??? Why do you need a pistol now??? Oh why don't you just get by with a revolver??? Why do you need 6 shots??? A single shot will do right??? And it goes from there. When someone justifies the NEED then it starts the cascade that leads the removal of all of them.

I don't agree with all the laws that are on the books. Some are there and get followed. I don't mind the 7 Day wait.... I know it's bogus as the day is long. You can call the FBI and have your info on whether or not you are allowed to get a firearm in about 15 minutes.

BUT the wait would at least give it time say if you got picked up for starting a bar fight, get released in the AM after posting bail. Go to the gunshop to pick up a gun to go pop the guy you fought with. I can see the wait in being 7 days to make sure your record got updated n such. It may not make a difference in whether or not you get the gun, but it could.

Anyway... I do think that IL has super crappy laws. I think alot of places do. I think if you want to carry you should be allowed to.

Did you know (to the best of my knowledge) it is 100% legal for you to carry a firearm on your hip at any time. As long as it's not into a school, or into a post office, or federal building. And as long as it's not concealed.

Well there are alot of other issues I have with alot of other rules and thoughts... but no matter what gets said here, very seldom will it change the views of those that have no clue.

DM

[CoolHand]

I honestly don't see a lot of tactical use (legal or otherwise) in a FA firearm of any kind.

A real machine gun (like M-60, SAW, etc) is for creating a suppressive field of fire, but a standard rifleman's rifle (in the calibers they're issued in) is not of a great deal of use in that capacity.

I just don't see the use for a FA infantryman's rifle.

Now, three shot burst? That's another story . . . . .

Honestly, I really want to know how that three shot mechanism works. The FA version of the M-16 trigger mechanism is dirt simple, but the way that three shot thing operates has thus far eluded me.

Anybody got a schematic of that, or maybe an exploded view? Don't need dimensions or anything like that, I'm just curious as to how the thing operates.

Maybe there's a little on that end of the selector switch, eh?

[maxama10]

Thanks for the reply on how to go about to obtain firearms in US, it is very different from our crappy system. I'm actualy learning a lot from this thread.

Since we are on the personal safety issue, what are your thoughts on personal safety at school. Let's say university, since most students are of age, are they allowed to carry firearms? Should they? In high school, they are not of age, but they are not provided with a personal safety from the adults in charge. Where is the line?

No, to college & university, only in I want to say Utah? AZ?

No to HS anywhere. Eh, they rely on walls and cameras to keep us safe.

I can't say that I think weapons in high school (too many stupid people) are a good idea, however college is debatable. Provided it's concealed carry, and one has proper training.

Accuracy is crucial here!

Maybe have to take an extra course on top of the CCW? I'm too young to get a permit so I can't say how difficult the CCW permits are to get already. ?

[DevilMan]

CCW's are state to state on what you can and can not get.... VERY few people who have them are the type that don't know how to clear the weapon, clean the weapon, field strip the weapon, or know which end is the bizness end. In KY it's mandatory to get your CCDW that you take a course, you get a background check ran, you have to take apart and clean your pistol and you have to qualify with it by hitting targets at the range and handle the weapon properly at ALL times.

It's a review of you and what you know that you go through.

Concealed Carry is NOT for everyone. NOT everyone should be allowed it. Same as DRIVING A CAR!!!! NOT everyone should be allowed it. BUT if you can prove yourself to be law abiding, trust worthy, stable and knowledgable of how the weapon operates and it's uses and the rules that one must follow to prevent misuse then there should be NO reason you can't carry when and where you like.

DM

[drg]

And I would agree with you on most of them. I do not feel that FA weapons are needed. But I also feel that anything other than pump markers aren't needed to have a good time. But when you start justifying the NEED for a FA firearm that gives credence to Why do you need a rifle??? Why a shotgun??? Why do you need a pistol now??? Oh why don't you just get by with a revolver??? Why do you need 6 shots??? A single shot will do right??? And it goes from there. When someone justifies the NEED then it starts the cascade that leads the removal of all of them.

This is one of the main points I have been addressing throughout this thread, which most have missed. This mindset, while unfortunately a byproduct of American politics, is a big, big part of the problem.

The choices aren't ... and should not be ... between complete ban and no regulation at all.

[Pneumagger]

I'll give you that FA is fun to shoot, but look at the major times like the North Hollywood bank robbery when criminals(who statistically very very seldom use FA as well) use full auto weapons. It gets bad fast. The risks just outway the rewards big time.

You realize that Full Auto Firearms are indeed legal for civilian ownership and (pending state legalities) if you can legally own a handgun, you can own an Machine Gun?
Furthermore, there are only 2 incidents of crimes committed using privately owned machine guns since the 1986 NFA regulations.
Both crimes were committed by off duty police officers.

[teufelhunden]

Furthermore, there are only 2 incidents of crimes committed using privately owned machine guns since the 1986 NFA regulations.
Both crimes were committed by off duty police officers.

Link? I don't doubt it, just seems as though it would be good ammo for debate [pun kinda intended].

[Pneumagger]

Link? I don't doubt it, just seems as though it would be good ammo for debate [pun kinda intended].

http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/gunshy.html

This article was current as of 1991, however I know of no violent crimes committed with a registered machine since then either. There are a very small handful of crimes of illegal possession of a registered automatic firearms... but only 1 violent crime has been committed with a legal machine gun. From the director of the BATF's mouth directly:

BATF Director Stephen E. Higgins had admitted in congressional testimony that registered machine guns are not a law enforcement problem. "There's not a documented case since 1934 of the misuse of a registered machine gun by a private citizen," Halbrook says. {The one case of a murder using a registered machine gun was by a police officer, i.e. not a private citizen.}

Now obviously, criminals do illegally convert guns to F/A or buy them on the black market... But I think this statistic specks volumes about the firearm owners who are law abiding. It shows that with proper legislation, violence can be curbed without bans and criminals will always get the guns. It shows that properly trained gun owners are willing to jump through hoops to exercise their rights and that gun ownership - even of super scary evil machine guns - does not equate mayhem and deaths.

I own a machine gun... If I gain possession of it be the time tunaball rolls around, I plan on bringing it and hitting up some ranges.

[DevilMan]

This is one of the main points I have been addressing throughout this thread, which most have missed. This mindset, while unfortunately a byproduct of American politics, is a big, big part of the problem.

The choices aren't ... and should not be ... between complete ban and no regulation at all.

Well for one there has been REGULATION ever since guns started coming to dealers with numbers on em and then the dealers having to make sure that the numbers and names match when you buy them. It's called a paper trail.

If I buy a legit gun from a legit dealer and he has my name on the books and I sell it or it gets stolen by someone and a crime is committed with it then IT"S MY FAULT!!! YES that's correct. If you wish to sell the gun legally then you and the buyer go to a gun legit store and you fill out the proper papers which then transfers ownership over to the new owner. And thereby taking the responsibility out of your hands. If it gets stolen from you then it is your DUTY to report it to the authorities so that they then know that there is another gun on the streets that could bring them harm and that they should be aware of that info. If you don't report it missing/stolen then it's on you if something happens and you still are listed as the owner. It's not unlike auto registration.

And the way the system works up top is we have a crapload of blowhards who pad their wallets with raises and leave us commoners down here in the weeds who think they know what the hell everyone wants because of a few folks that whisper lies into their heads.

It's real simple to run this country when it comes to matters such as this and immigration and everything else. You set up a voting area... You want a new city ordinance put in place to keep dirt bikes out of the playground... You put it out in the paper and you put it out to the media and anyone who is registered as living in that city has 5 days to make it to the polls to place their vote.

If the county wants to bulldoze the old decrepit warehouse and put in a new animal shelter just outside of city lines then anyone registered within that county gets 5 days to make it to the polls to place their vote. There is NO GREY AREA... IT comes in forms of LEGIT writing without big fancy words and 59 page long deals. You can't tell me that everything that goes on can't be summed up into 1 page. You can stretch it out and you can shrink it as well.

If it's a state thing then everyone in the state gets to vote... so on and so forth.

What about fraud??? Yeah that's a chance isn't it.... Well for starters, you get a number to vote with... that number is crossed to your current addy, your current DL number, your SSN, and any other number that happens to be used for ID'ing purposes. If something comes up with duplicate numbers then both parties are found and the issue resolved.

Another problem with todays society is too many people try to justify their existence and their job by making the solutions to problems toooo damn complicated.

It's not hard... Kill and be killed, Get drunk jump in front of train... die... Do wrong... get punished.... Be stupid... get scars... Harm someone else... get the ever lasting tar beat out of you by anyone who comes by and wishes to cast a stone....

Is it primitive??? Perhaps... but when you can show me that mankind has evolved to a level where that shouldn't be necessary then let me know and we'll go from there.

DM

[MoeMag]

There are few things I will say are worth my life fighting against... and living in a government unarmed society is one of them.

I agree with DM... show me an entire society of Higher evolved humans and I might be able to deal with it.

I have had my gun and CCW permit from the week I turned 21. The feeling of security I have from it is so worth it. There is NOTHING that I wouldnt have a chance against... okay maybe zombies... then I need to run home for the super magnum slug gun and AR.

but until then, I will carry my gun with my CCW permit, every where I can, and stay away from places where I can not.

Soon it will be legal for me to carry at school. (Arizona State University) and as far as I am concerned will make it a much safer place. Guys are mugged, and girls are raped ALL the time. Its really bad, at least 2 or 3 a week. The main student parking lot (lot59) is almost a 1.5 miles from the main part of campus, over two city streets, on the opposite side of the mountain the stadium is built on. Its dangerous as hell out there, because aside from the university, thats a bad part of town. the main shipping rails run just east of campus over the river into the old run down industrial section... there is a reason the main street is called Mill.

The university has its own police department, which the university has made clear is not welcome due to a bad PC image, and they maintain a minimum required by the state. ask any Officer on campus and they will back that up, along with an ongoing section in the school newspaper. at any given time there are no more than 6 officers on duty, in a school with a student population of 51,000. its stupid.

I cant wait. those creeps out in 59 will think twice after they get a gun pulled on them.

[bryceeden]

You realize that Full Auto Firearms are indeed legal for civilian ownership and (pending state legalities) if you can legally own a handgun, you can own an Machine Gun?
Furthermore, there are only 2 incidents of crimes committed using privately owned machine guns since the 1986 NFA regulations.
Both crimes were committed by off duty police officers.

I don't know what state your in, but here they sure arn't the same. I can go get a handgun, but I can't legally own a FA. It requires a very very expensive permit, handguns do not.

[Pneumagger]

I don't know what state your in, but here they sure arn't the same. I can go get a handgun, but I can't legally own a FA. It requires a very very expensive permit, handguns do not.

I live in Ohio. There is not "Very Expensive Permit" unless you plan to be a dealer or manfacturer of title II firearms. Title II firearms include Machine Guns, Silencers, Short Barreled Rifles, Short Barreled Shotguns, AOW's, and Duestructive Devices (explosives). In Utah, all of these items are 100% legal for civilian ownership.

http://www.bodermansports.com/html/nfa_states.html

About the "expensive permit"... there is not permit to own these items. There is a tax of sorts whenever these goods change hands. I simply pay my tax and mail the paperwork off to the BATFE when I buy the item and thats it. When they return my approved tax form (Form 4) with an NFA tax stap, I can pick up my item. It is a one time tax of $200 and depending on how you submit paperwork you don't even need a background check or fingerprint cards. When I go to pick up my Mac 11/9 the dealer will call the NICS backround check just like a handgun and thats it. Basially, if you can own a pistol you can own any of these weapons - state laws pending.
To top it off, you can even personally build anything except a machine gun with a Form 1.

*Utah does allow everything, but salt lake city does not allow silencers.

[bryceeden]

I live in Ohio. There is not "Very Expensive Permit" unless you plan to be a dealer or manfacturer of title II firearms. Title II firearms include Machine Guns, Silencers, Short Barreled Rifles, Short Barreled Shotguns, AOW's, and Duestructive Devices (explosives). In Utah, all of these items are 100% legal for civilian ownership.

http://www.bodermansports.com/html/nfa_states.html

About the "expensive permit"... there is not permit to own these items. There is a tax of sorts whenever these goods change hands. I simply pay my tax and mail the paperwork off to the BATFE when I buy the item and thats it. When they return my approved tax form (Form 4) with an NFA tax stap, I can pick up my item. It is a one time tax of $200 and depending on how you submit paperwork you don't even need a background check or fingerprint cards. When I go to pick up my Mac 11/9 the dealer will call the NICS backround check just like a handgun and thats it. Basially, if you can own a pistol you can own any of these weapons - state laws pending.
To top it off, you can even personally build anything except a machine gun with a Form 1.

*Utah does allow everything, but salt lake city does not allow silencers.

The tax of sorts(fee) provides documentation allowing you privledges(permit) its paid yearly and is not cheap, the $200 one time silencer stuff is true but class three weapons(which full autos are) are not something you can just go get in Utah and I'd venture anywhere else in the states for that matter. The web site you provided has no machine guns, and for that matter I can't find any full autos on it. Making a semi auto look like an M4 doesn't make it a machine gun. Sure you can have a semi auto AR-15 or AK47 or whatever but the key word is semi. It takes ALOT more to own fullautos and silencers than it takes to own a pistol. I legally own alot of pistols, I would love an MP5, I can't have an MP5 because I don't have a permit to. I'm thinking the site you referanced should do its research or provide more info because it is giving you the wrong idea.

[CoolHand]

The tax of sorts(fee) provides documentation allowing you privledges(permit) its paid yearly and is not cheap, the $200 one time silencer stuff is true but class three weapons(which full autos are) are not something you can just go get in Utah and I'd venture anywhere else in the states for that matter. The web site you provided has no machine guns, and for that matter I can't find any full autos on it. Making a semi auto look like an M4 doesn't make it a machine gun. Sure you can have a semi auto AR-15 or AK47 or whatever but the key word is semi. It takes ALOT more to own fullautos and silencers than it takes to own a pistol. I legally own alot of pistols, I would love an MP5, I can't have an MP5 because I don't have a permit to. I'm thinking the site you referanced should do its research or provide more info because it is giving you the wrong idea.

You are incorrect about this sir.

I have a huge yellow book, provided by the ATF which contains a comprehensive list of every single state firearms law, cataloged by state, to help me not break the law when I sell stuff to other dealers or folks out of state.

I have read the section on Utah, just now in fact (all three and a quarter pages of them), and as of Dec 2006, there is no recurring tax on class III weapons, there is no special permit to acquire a class III weapon, and there is no prohibition from owning FA firearms of any type.

Just because you cannot buy one off the internet does not mean they are not available. As I said, they are extremely expensive now, and as such, not many people are really looking to buy them. Those that want one and have the money to spend on one, can find what they are after with relative ease, assuming they pass the AFT/FBI background checks and such.

If you have reference to support your position, please do so, because I want to know if my reference material is incomplete or missing something as important as that.

[bryceeden]

You are incorrect about this sir.

I have a huge yellow book, provided by the ATF which contains a comprehensive list of every single state firearms law, cataloged by state, to help me not break the law when I sell stuff to other dealers or folks out of state.

I have read the section on Utah, just now in fact (all three and a quarter pages of them), and as of Dec 2006, there is no recurring tax on class III weapons, there is no special permit to acquire a class III weapon, and there is no prohibition from owning FA firearms of any type.

Just because you cannot buy one off the internet does not mean they are not available. As I said, they are extremely expensive now, and as such, not many people are really looking to buy them. Those that want one and have the money to spend on one, can find what they are after with relative ease, assuming they pass the AFT/FBI background checks and such.

If you have reference to support your position, please do so, because I want to know if my reference material is incomplete or missing something as important as that.

Is that as in the permit is not required after of December 06? If that be the case then you may be right as I have not checked in afew years. My info comes from local police, and hanging out with alot of gun nuts who do have full autos and such. I don't have any place you can look it up, sorry, I wanted to buy an MP5/P90 and thats what I was told I decided it wasn't worth the yearly fee. I have a class with a guy who owns a gun shop tonight, I'll find out for sure and let you know.