Handgun advice?

[ManInBlack]

And if they would make it in 9MM I would seriously consider replacing my G26 tomorrow.

You can get a Taurus Millennial in DAO and 9mm, but in my opinion it's not nearly as nice a gun.

[Lohman446]

You can get a Taurus Millennial in DAO and 9mm, but in my opinion it's not nearly as nice a gun.

I don't buy Taurus pistols anymore.... it involves third degree powder burns from a misfire. The thing I liked about the Sig was the size, and the accuracy that seemed inherent in Sig pistols that I have owned.

[ManInBlack]

I don't buy Taurus pistols anymore.... it involves third degree powder burns from a misfire. The thing I liked about the Sig was the size, and the accuracy that seemed inherent in Sig pistols that I have owned.

My grandfather has a Taurus .357 that's really nice, but other than that gun I've not been impressed. The p230 is amazingly accurate for such a small gun. I also own a Ruger p89 and I'm not nearly as accurate with it.

I'll have to throw another + out there for Glock. I shot one for the first time a couple weeks ago and was blown away by the accuracy and simplicity. My next gun purchase will probably be a Glock 30 or 36 in .45 caliber.

[thecavemankevin]

Hey Kevin,
I have a number of guns in different caliburs, different sites, and different manufacturers. I also live in the same area of Virginia as you do. PM me and I'll see if we can't find a time in my busy schedule where you can check out some of these pistols or even make a trip to a range. (The only pain about the ranges here is that they are extremely over-priced and you must use their ammo). None-the-less, if you want any help, please send me a PM. There is a retailer in town who has the best prices due to the fact of not having the overhead that most businesses have.

i'm totally in and pm sent, thanks

[thecavemankevin]

I would actually place the Bersa 380 as one of those "great buy" handguns. Not exactly a Kel-Tec size (I own and would not recommend a Kel-Tec due to durability issues) but a nice gun.

Bersa!, that is the 380 i was thinking the wife may like. She doesn't have any real experience with guns yet. I want to get more use to/with them and find things i like first before she starts learning. She still isn't convinced that she want's a gun in the house. Before the attempted break in she was anti gun, now she is thinking about it. I figure after taking her to the range and taking a safety course she will feel more comfortable with them. But if any of you have any advice in this realm it is much appreciated.

[thecavemankevin]

You can get a Taurus Millennial in DAO and 9mm, but in my opinion it's not nearly as nice a gun.

I was looking at some Tauruses at the show and was a little worried about what you had said about the AD and just thought it was better to walk away from them

[thecavemankevin]

-Good exterior lighting
-No shrubs, trees, or cover near the house
-ensure exterior locks are used
-vary your routine to throw off those "scoping" out your house
-alarm system to defend the perimeter while you sleep, with obvious signage outside
-dog in the backyard[/B]

Do that, and they won't even TRY to break in. They'll just move onto greener pastures.

have the lighting
no coverage that baddies could hide behind against the house
doors always locked and will soon have extra reinforcement plates for improved strength
alarm system with motion detector along with now surveillance camera pods outside
dogs outside, but in a pen

still want a gun to defend my own

[93civiccpe]

Well, you were pretty clear in the intent of your message. The pattern should never be a reason for using a shotgun for home defense. The advantage (for home defense) of the number of pellets is their ability to stop a target, not that it makes it easier to hit the target. That's the mentality for hunting, where the spread does help.

As for the pattern on the target, keep this in mind: To keep all the buck on the target, you must still aim for the center of mass, same as with a pistol. Given that fact, how is there any "fudge factor" (your words), or any need to be less accurate with a shotgun? You hit off center with the shotgun, and you have pellets going downrange towards god-knows-what.

And a 00 buck will penetrate A LOT more than one or two layers of drywall http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

I don't mean to sound overly-critical, but this is a common misconception, and one that can lead to very severe consequences.

Apparently I've been working too hard to get back here to check this. First of all, when did I ever mention 00 Buck?? I actually keep 7 1/2 shot (clay-shot) loaded in my shotgun. Primarily because I do a good bit of skeet, but if I did have to use it in close-quarters (protecting my house) I would know that it would get the job done, and it would not go through the walls. All this talk of missed shot "going downrange towards god-knows-what" makes no sense. My point was to use shot that would not penetrate past 2 layers of drywall, which is what is commonly advised when using a shotgun for home protection. You are the one who keeps saying 00 Buck, which is over-kill for home protection. I would never advise that. In both my line of work and my hobby of shooting I have been through more firearm training courses than I want to think about. Overwhelmingly, the experts all agree that the best choice for home defense, ESPECIALLY if you are worried about penetrating the walls, is a shotgun with the appropriate shot. You can argue until you are blue in the face and you will not change my mind on that. Suggesting that a pistol is better for a new shooter is ignorant. If you've ever done IDPA or 3-gun shoots you would know how hard it is to move and fire with a pistol, and that's after years and years of training. So you are going to suggest that a new shooter use a pistol that will be guaranteed to penetrate the walls and go "god-knows-where" when they miss instead of a safer shot that will do the job and not get where you don't want it?? Am I understanding your arguement correctly?? This is a no-brainer for me.

And yes, I do personally believe that the "fudge factor" is important. If you don't, let's go skeet shooting and I'll allow you to use your pistol of choice (other than a Taurus judge) and I'll use my shotgun and let's see how it turns out. Plain and simply, if using an appropriate load that will not go through a wall, the pattern is going to help you and not hurt you. You may end up doing a little more damage to the wall / internals, but when your life is at stake you have to decide what's more important. I'd much rather have a new/novice shooter with a shotgun & appropriate load than a pistol, because in the excitement / fear of the moment when their adrenaline is flowing and heartbeat is up, that shot with the pistol is 100 times harder, and that's from a guy that's been there. All of this is practically out of the FBI reference for personal defense. I'm not talking out of my butt here. This is years of training and actual experience, as I don't want to mislead anyone. A pistol can be a fine home protection firearm, IF you spend the time at the range getting competent with it and I mean thousands and thousands of rounds.

Steelrat, you do have a lot of good advice, especially all the stuff on the exterior of the house as a deterrent. Maybe our misunderstanding is that you were thinking 00 buck shot which definitely would be a bad idea. Most police agencies use #4 shot when having to enter a dwelling place. They actually make special shot designed for personal protection that will not penetrate the walls.. and I believe TAP makes a good line of it if I remember correctly.

Kevin, I'll email you and see if we can't find some time to get to the range.

Lohman446, Check out the sig p239. It comes in 9mm, .357sig, and .40s&w. It is what I am now carrying and love. I'm as accurate with that as I am my larger sigs and it is small and comfortable.. I'd definitely check one out if you are looking for a good carry-size sig.

[Lohman446]

Lohman446, Check out the sig p239. It comes in 9mm, .357sig, and .40s&w. It is what I am now carrying and love. I'm as accurate with that as I am my larger sigs and it is small and comfortable.. I'd definitely check one out if you are looking for a good carry-size sig.

I carried a P239 for about a year as my daily carry weapon, in 357 Sig. Loved the gun on he range, hated it in my holster (and I tried several high end holsters to find one I would like - I think I had more $$ in holsters than the weapon). Just balanced "wrong" and was a bit too thick (it seemed). Went from that to a 1911 for awhile but could not get over the cocked and locked aspect of carry (wasn't helped when I noted the safety had been inadvertently disengaged one day while carrying). Now I'm in the Glock stage (kinda tells me the Sig wasn't too thick huh). Prior I had carried a 357 snubbie Taurus as my everyday gun, and somewhere between the 1911 and Glock was (and still sometimes is ) a S+W airweight. When I'm in the "some gun is better than no gun" mindframe I have a Kel-tec for in the pocket.

I'm thinking about swapping my G26 for my G20 for awhile just to see if I can tolerate the full-frame weapon as an everyday carry. 15 rounds of full power 10MM > 10 rounds of full power 9MM

[Lohman446]

As to the handgun vs shotgun debate...

Neither is a good choice for a beginner if they are not prepared to practice with it and become competent with it. There is no room for error so to speak in any situation where one would be wielding a firearm in personal defense.

There is no doubt a shotgun has more stopping power. However, it comes at certain expenses. My handgun is in a quick access safe that keeps it properly (and in some states as legally required) secured with quick access. I do not know of such a safe for a shotgun that would fit where I need it to fit to be quickly accessible. My shotguns are in a safe that is not quick to get into. You would have a hard time disarming me of any of my handguns in close range - a shotgun you would not have such a hard time. Considering there are no really blind corners in my house this is probably not as big a deal. Considering those in my house with me a shotguns "spread" is a detriment.

Handgun or shotgun is a strategic decision - and one has to consider the handgun cartridge carbines in that decision as well.

[rb211]

Steelrat / 93civiccpe

As a former law enforcement officer and firearms instructor - you are both right - and both wrong.

The shotgun IS one of the most widely recommended / accepted home defense choices. Steelrat, you are right on aiming the shotgun, but you have to take into account that you have aim a pistol more precisely to hit your target. Also, in my years of teaching shotgun, I never encountered the shot spread that was referenced (1 inch per foot). Now, if you shoot buckshot through a choked barrel, that will happen, but most if not all of the shotguns that are sold as home defense weapons (18-20" barrels) have no choke, they are cylinder bore. A choke causes buckshot pellets to "bounce" off of each other as they pass through the choke which would cause excessive spread. We used to train at 15yds, and I was able to keep all of my pellets on target.

Loads matter greatly. Using birdshot would be a big mistake unless you are right on top of the person when you are firing. Birdshot does not have the energy to penetrate multiple layers of clothing, skin, and fat layers to do enough damage. 00 buck is what you should be using, however, you will have to aim.

As far as overpenetration and/or stray pellets, the website quoted is not entirely accurate. He is shooting into closely spaced drywall, nothing else. There is a lot more involved in building a wall than just the drywall - studs, insulation, wiring, soundproofing, etc. It also doesn't take into account angle of trajectory. In the case of home defense, there is a very strong chance that you would be firing down the length of a hallway. Pellets entering a wall at an angle will stop faster than a straight-on shot, and more than likely will not make it through the studs/insulation with enough energy to fully penetrate another wall, or critically injure another person. A 9mm, .40, .357 will overpenetrate faster than a shotgun, pass through just as many walls (if not more) than a shotgun. There are pros/cons to both.

Either way, you would be a fool not to be sure of your background before you pull the trigger. If your loved ones are too close to or in the line of fire, don't take the shot.

And lastly, the shot - I don't know either of you, but I don't think (or I sincerely hope) either of you have been in that kind of situation. Shooting at targets, clay pigeons, drywall, pumpkins, watermelons, or anything of the sort is completely different from the real thing. NOBODY knows what they will do if the real thing comes along. I have been there, and although I used to shoot perfect scores on pistol and shotgun , My first shot missed. Panic and adrenaline do strange things to us. If you hit a person center mass on your first shot, trust me, it was a fluke.

The fudge factor I think 93civiccpe was referring to is the sound of a pump shotgun being racked. Nothing like it, and everyone knows what that sound is.

Oh, and 93civiccpe, 00 buck is the most widely used shotgun load for law enforcement. #4 tends to have a penetration problem with multiple layers of clothing.

End of rant.

[93civiccpe]

^^ Now that is something I definitely overlooked Lohman. I fortunately live in a "free state" where there is no regulation on how I keep my firearm inside my house. In that situation, a pistol would be a good solution. I have a buddy picking up one of those Taurus "The Judge" revolvers that shoots .410 shotshells. They are meant for close range defense (in your car defense) and I can't wait to see how they fire. They will fire either .410 shotshell or a .45 long colt round equally well. I am waiting to see how it performs before making any comment other than that it is a neat idea.

As for carrying the p239, I hear you. I'm a bigger guy so it's a little easier for me to carry the compacts and subcompacts, but it has sold me because of how it performs on the range. With the little p3at by keltec, it's hard to hit with any kind of accuracy even at 7 yards for most people due to the small little notch sight. The single stack 9mm pf9 from keltec is okay, but i've just about sworn off all keltecs after seeing a new one malfunction badly at a range. No one seriously injured, and Keltec replaced everything for free, but it just turned me off on them.

If you like sigs, and are shooting a glock, I might have a suggestion that you will like. Unfortunately, it is a little pricey, which is what is killing me. It is the gun I've wanted to get for concealed carry but I just can't justify it yet, especially with my upcomming job situation. The gun I'm talking about is the Kahr Arms MK9. It has a metal frame like a sig, all the internal safeties of a glock, except no annoying trigger safety. It is smaller than the p239, and the magazine capacity is nice. It shoots nice, feels good in the hand, and is reliable. One of the shop owners told me that a couple designers from Glock were the ones who formed Kahr arms, which is why they look eerily familiar and strip down similarly. And for a guy like me who doesn't like the glock trigger-safety, I love them. They are a little more expensive than the glock 26, but are a little smaller/thinner and feel much better in my hand. You might want to go take a look at one if you have not. I would advise against any of the non-metal framed Kahrs. (They make a CW-9 which is the same size but with composite frame, and supposedly the slide wears at the frame and you get some black shavings while it breaks in. Some of the composite frame Kahr's have had issues stemming from the frames, but I've never heard of a problem with the metal ones.)

[93civiccpe]

rb211- Great information there. I definitely agree with you. The panic / adrenaline point was one I was really trying to get across. Even with a lot of training and hours on the range when in that situation the shot is 100 times harder. And the #4 shot might just be a state-wide or county-wide thing here, and that might have changed. I know it used to be a procedure than when law enforcement entered a resident where friendlies were believed to be, they used #4 shot. That might just be a local thing and I'm not sure if it is still on the books. Good information, and thanks for putting us in our places.. =). Never hurts to be humbled / corrected from time to time.. that's the only way you learn.

[Lohman446]

If you like sigs, and are shooting a glock, I might have a suggestion that you will like. Unfortunately, it is a little pricey, which is what is killing me. It is the gun I've wanted to get for concealed carry but I just can't justify it yet, especially with my upcomming job situation. The gun I'm talking about is the Kahr Arms MK9. It has a metal frame like a sig, all the internal safeties of a glock, except no annoying trigger safety. It is smaller than the p239, and the magazine capacity is nice. It shoots nice, feels good in the hand, and is reliable. One of the shop owners told me that a couple designers from Glock were the ones who formed Kahr arms, which is why they look eerily familiar and strip down similarly. And for a guy like me who doesn't like the glock trigger-safety, I love them. They are a little more expensive than the glock 26, but are a little smaller/thinner and feel much better in my hand. You might want to go take a look at one if you have not. I would advise against any of the non-metal framed Kahrs. (They make a CW-9 which is the same size but with composite frame, and supposedly the slide wears at the frame and you get some black shavings while it breaks in. Some of the composite frame Kahr's have had issues stemming from the frames, but I've never heard of a problem with the metal ones.)

I looked seriously at Kahrs before picking up Glocks - really did not like them nor the idea of any firearm with as serious FTF issues as those have had reported - its also the reason HK was out. Now I understand those remedy themselves over break-in and tend to be ammo specific but I still do not like the idea. I did not like how stiff a Kahrs operation was either. What sold me on the G26 was a range session with one - when I can pick up a compact rental gun and shoot well at 25 yards I consider it decent, and that sold me on it.

My Keltec I practice instinct point shooting, and I added a laser that comes on instantly as my finger goes into the trigger gaurd. That being said it had a failure that Kel-tec fixed for me but remedied it as a last case scenario for self defense in my mind (I have not carried it sense).

My biggest gripe about the Glock so far is learning to shoot a Glock trigger "correctly". Other than that I'm as satisfied with them as any handgun I have carried daily and perhaps more so (and obviously I'm picky and have tried a lot of options). Though for all day comfort the S+W airweight was the winner.

[rb211]

rb211- Great information there. I definitely agree with you. The panic / adrenaline point was one I was really trying to get across. Even with a lot of training and hours on the range when in that situation the shot is 100 times harder. And the #4 shot might just be a state-wide or county-wide thing here, and that might have changed. I know it used to be a procedure than when law enforcement entered a resident where friendlies were believed to be, they used #4 shot. That might just be a local thing and I'm not sure if it is still on the books. Good information, and thanks for putting us in our places.. =). Never hurts to be humbled / corrected from time to time.. that's the only way you learn.

Definitely not trying to humble / correct either of you, just sharing real experiences.

For a while, we were allowed to choose between #4 and 00, but as we went along, we found that #4 was sometimes insufficient for that purpose. 00 can be found in a "low recoil" or weaker load, pretty much the same powder charge as low brass birdshot. That definitely lessened the concern of overpenetration and was still quite effective. At the time, it was law enforcement only, but I'm sure it can be found on gunbroker.com or elsewhere.

Bottom line, go with what you are comfortable with. Try as many choices as you can and buy what you / your wife are the most comfortable with - then pray that the moment never comes when you will have to use it.

My circumstances were quite different than a home defense setting, but when the realization that you took a life hits you - and I don't care how hard-core a person is, it is a decision that will never forget.