what would you spend 369 million on?

[michbich]

I'm not going to debate on the comparaison between pedophiles and gays because that example is just immoral. It's like comparing " should a man and a snake be able to get married" with gay marrage.

However, I do understand your point about gays making the rest of the group uncomfortable. I guess it's a question on where to draw the line. Because if you think about it, why should women be allowed in the army, they could also make the rest of the unit uncomfortable.

But why do we fight it so much? It will get accepted in the long run anyways. Wether we're in favor of it or not.

[Hilltop Customs]

I have debated this topic hundreds of thousands of times, and I have some gay people in my direct family

my .02 is
If no one chooses their sexuality then that would define for me that people don't choose the fetishes that they are in. (whatever that might be)

IMO if you allow that to slide by it would also include pedifiles (sp). After all they did not choose to like little children.

If my employer said that I need not run at work then I will not run. If my employer stated that I need not be gay then so be it. There is a place and time for everything. The army is not one of those places. If they want to be gay when they are out go for it. I completely understand the reason for not putting a gay guy in a platoon of straight men. Not only will it cause some people to be uncomfortable, but it would be unsafe for the gay person. Regardless how you look at it it is probally easier to spend 360 million than dealing with gay groups after someone hangs a gay person for making a pass on him/her.

It may not be right, but it is the right way to do it.

thats a tough one. I understand how you linked sexuality and fetishes...but thats a big jump to pedophiles. Even in ancient Greece where just about anything sexual was accepted, (even more than accepted, commonplace) there was a line drawn at adolescence. If a boy could not grow a beard, he was not accepted into the mentor-student(homosexual) apprenticeship. IDK if there was something similar for girls, but I would imagine there would be an age limit. IMO there is just something morally wrong with pedophiles, because there is only one consenting party, homosexualism(sp?) on the other hand both parties are fully consenting.

I understand what your saying about employers and following the rules, but I see the armed forces as more than just an employer(and they represent themselves as more too) I believe any person(within reason) should have the right to support/protect their country if they choose to. They may have to give up some freedoms(dont ask dont tell) but if someone(government) is actively investigating into a persons sexuality, isnt that breaking the dont ask dont tell rule?

[MANN]

thats a tough one. I understand how you linked sexuality and fetishes...but thats a big jump to pedophiles.

isnt a pedophile just another fetish? A sexual preference? Something to get your rocks off?

[wetwrks]

thats a tough one. I understand how you linked sexuality and fetishes...but thats a big jump to pedophiles. Even in ancient Greece where just about anything sexual was accepted, (even more than accepted, commonplace) there was a line drawn at adolescence. If a boy could not grow a beard, he was not accepted into the mentor-student(homosexual) apprenticeship. IDK if there was something similar for girls, but I would imagine there would be an age limit. IMO there is just something morally wrong with pedophiles, because there is only one consenting party, homosexualism(sp?) on the other hand both parties are fully consenting.

I understand what your saying about employers and following the rules, but I see the armed forces as more than just an employer(and they represent themselves as more too) I believe any person(within reason) should have the right to support/protect their country if they choose to. They may have to give up some freedoms(dont ask dont tell) but if someone(government) is actively investigating into a persons sexuality, isnt that breaking the dont ask dont tell rule?

Years ago my father stated that this is all just a stepping stone for the true goal of pedophiles. First get sexual preferences recognized as being out of bounds for morality - now men can use the restrooms with little girls. Even show themselves to little girls and there is nothing that the police can do about it. It all ties together in the end. Once sexual preference is out of bounds then everything is allowed.

[Hilltop Customs]

OR...
Now don't get me wrong, I don't neccisarily believe that they should kick gay people out of the military, simply for being gay. Though even as you said, Hilltop, the guy in the story you were talking about had, in a way, gone around flaunting the fact that he was. Even though it's VERY well known when it comes to the whole dispute between the military, and gays. Yet he still decided to let it be known that he's gay. What do you expect? That's basically asking for trouble. Even though he didn't go directly out, and tell everyone he's gay.

Besides, why are you getting so bent out of shape about this? Surely if the military really did spend 369 Million on this subject, you'd think they probably would have "wasted" money else where. Especially on things that matters more than whether or not gays are allowed in the Military. It's silly to get into an argument over things like this. Honestly, you're doing somewhat the same thing the guy in the military did, stirring up a hornets nest. Whether or not that's you're intention, you should've realized this post was going sour after the first couple of posts. Politics, Religion, and now Sexuality is things, most of the time, better left alone. Believe what you want, it gives you no right to try and push your beliefs on to others.

my bad for not mentioning it earlier, but from the way the situation was described, the guy in the story had signed up to the forum before joining the military...and they made no mention if he was using it at the time he was "discovered" I think they said he was still in the closet and hadent told his family.

I'm not getting bent out of shape, I just wanted to start a discussion. I just thought it is hypocritical of the military to do something like that. I'm not trying to push anything on anyone, I'm not even sure what I would be pushing onto people? Sorry if I came off forceful in my opinions, I'm an engineer, it just kinda comes out that way.



MANN....a fetish everyone involved agrees, even in the most extreme there are safe words and such to protect the people involeved....rape and pedophiles are way past a fetish, they dont require and dont want the other parties consent.

[MANN]

I understand what your saying about employers and following the rules, but I see the armed forces as more than just an employer(and they represent themselves as more too) I believe any person(within reason) should have the right to support/protect their country if they choose to. They may have to give up some freedoms(dont ask dont tell) but if someone(government) is actively investigating into a persons sexuality, isnt that breaking the dont ask dont tell rule?

I know that some companies actively search/investigate their employees online. A big one is school systems. They actively search myspace/facebook to insure the behavior is acceptable. I know our county's teachers are not allowed to have either that are not "private".

Is it an invasion of privicy? possibly? Is it their policy? yep. If you want to do it a different way find another employer.

The us army is an employer. they pay people to do a job. nothing more nothing less.

[bornl33t]

great

Ok, well here's food for though, would you let a child sex offender serve our country? Homosexuality is a fetish. It's not productive, it's people that are so obsesed with the though that they practise it. No different then all the other fetishes out there. Notice the similarities with nambla or cross dressers? They all want to be able to live their fetish in the open.

If gays are allowed in the Army, all restrictions should be put aside. We are this worlds predominant super power. We are like the police to society. Other countries watch us. Some want us dead, others are jealous of us because they want to be us. Most reasonson aren't valid but in the end our position voluntary or involuntary forces us to be better then the best. Slight slip ups become a huge deal, other countries will cry "don't tase me bro". ( the teasering was justified IMO for the record)

IMO the don't ask don't tell policy is a great solution to keeping integrity without pissing off America. But there are alway a few little ingrates out there that have to stir the pot. It's their way or the highway. They are not content with majority rule, they get a judge to over turn the will of the people because they are greater then America as a whole. America is sucuming to the fate of all great societies before us. Once our core values are cirumvented we will cease to be America.

[MANN]

MANN....a fetish everyone involved agrees, even in the most extreme there are safe words and such to protect the people involeved....rape and pedophiles are way past a fetish, they dont require and dont want the other parties consent.

OK so what if both parties consent. my drafting teacher in high school (one who also played paintball with everyone) slept with a 15 yr old girl. She consented. More than once.

My oppinion is that everyone has self control. You control your actions. If your employer says "dont be happy", "dont be loud", "dont be gay" the employee should either find other employment that allows for this, or understand that the employer has the right to terminate the employee.

[wetwrks]

MANN....a fetish everyone involved agrees, even in the most extreme there are safe words and such to protect the people involeved....rape and pedophiles are way past a fetish, they dont require and dont want the other parties consent.

Um, I disagree with you. The other side doesn't have to agree. If a man has a fetish for blondes, do all blondes have to like or want his attention?

[bornl33t]

I'm not going to debate on the comparaison between pedophiles and gays because that example is just immoral. It's like comparing " should a man and a snake be able to get married" with gay marrage.

However, I do understand your point about gays making the rest of the group uncomfortable. I guess it's a question on where to draw the line. Because if you think about it, why should women be allowed in the army, they could also make the rest of the unit uncomfortable.

But why do we fight it so much? It will get accepted in the long run anyways. Wether we're in favor of it or not.

Here in lies the problem. By what standart is pedophilia immoral? Society? Well society once said that homosexuality was wrong. And now look? What are another 20 years going to do? Society is a bad standart, it's constantly changing.

[wetwrks]

my bad for not mentioning it earlier, but from the way the situation was described, the guy in the story had signed up to the forum before joining the military...and they made no mention if he was using it at the time he was "discovered" I think they said he was still in the closet and hadent told his family.

I will bet (no, I don't know for certain) that he signed onto the forum from a military computer. And, being the military, they will and do monitor all transmissions in and out of those computers for the security of military secrets. this would be my guess as to how he got "caught".

[bornl33t]

I will bet (no, I don't know for certain) that he signed onto the forum from a military computer. And, being the military, they will and do monitor all transmissions in and out of those computers for the security of military secrets. this would be my guess as to how he got "caught".

....the reeeeeeeeest of the story...

I'll go one step further and say he was looking at gay porn and they fired him for that and his story was that be was fired for being gay.

[wetwrks]

Here in lies the problem. By what standard is pedophilia immoral? Society? Well society once said that homosexuality was wrong. And now look? What are another 20 years going to do? Society is a bad standard, it's constantly changing. Edited

And that is exactly it. Right and wrong doesn't change. You cannot base morality on society.

[Hilltop Customs]

OK so what if both parties consent. my drafting teacher in high school (one who also played paintball with everyone) slept with a 15 yr old girl. She consented. More than once.

My oppinion is that everyone has self control. You control your actions. If your employer says "dont be happy", "dont be loud", "dont be gay" the employee should either find other employment that allows for this, or understand that the employer has the right to terminate the employee.

IDK, we had a similar situation in my hometown. Baseball coach took kids home with him, watched porn and molested a couple. Dont know if they consented or not, but thats why the law is there to protect minors....consent by the young person or not its statutory rape.

I just dont believe the army=any other employment. They advertise themselves as more, they should accept the responsibility that some people will fight for the right to protect their country....even if they are homosexuals.



sorry for getting a discussion going then leaving it, but I got to go, hopefully the thread will be here when I get back.


thanks everyone for keeping the flames limited lol

[bornl33t]

And that is exactly it. Right and wrong doesn't change. You cannot base morality on society.

Bingo- (thread killer comming up) this is why the bible is the first thing gays try to discredit.


Religious or not, the bible is death to this type of argument.