Socialism One and All!

[SCpoloRicker]

Wrote a 25 page paper on civil disobedience? Or Capitalism? Or Democracy? Or the dangers of an uninformed majority?

Again, I went to B-School.

However, I'm quite familiar with the majority of authors you cite.

[XM15]

Intersting discussion but here is the real problem. I have car insurance and home insurance which I pay for and they are cheap. What do they all have in common? I have only had 4 claims on my insurance in 24 years and I have never had a claim on my home owners policy. When I need new brakes on my car I pay for that or the house needs a new window I pay for that not my insurance until something catosrophic happens. I open up the phone book and call places for the best deal for those things. Health care is expensive because some body else pays for it and not you. Replacing the evil insurance companies witth the nanny gov't doesn't change that dynamic. Until the system is consumer driven and not third party the costs will never come down.

[athomas]

The Canadian healthcare system is far from excellent.

I have a huge number of relatives in Canada (something around 150+ cousins/aunts/uncles at last count) and I've heard plenty of negative comments.

First off, wait times. You are entitled to care, but you aren't entitled to get it fast. I've heard from a few of my relatives that one of my uncles would still be alive today if he had been treated in the States, but because he was in Canada and was put on a wait list before he could receive surgery, he died while he was waiting.

I've also heard that since doctors are paid so little to work in the public hospitals, the best ones either go into private practice or come to the US. So you end up being treated by the doctors who aren't good enough to go somewhere else.

Basically, costs aside, most of my relatives, especially the older ones who have the most medical need, prefer US medical care. I know at least one of my great uncles came to the US to receive care because he didn't trust the Canadian system.

The Canadian system may be great for basic care for those who don't have money, but overall it is far from "excellent".

I guess I've been one of the lucky ones having only wait a couple of days to see a specialist, and only a couple of weeks to get MRI scans for a nonthreatening injury. A friend of mine had to wait a couple of days to get treatment for cancer. If I want more coverage, I can get private health care as well. I do have that option, and I do partake in it for dental, eye-care, and presciptions. My mother-in-law gets her high cost presciptions for free through the medical system because she is low income. Its pretty good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

A lot of the perceived problems with the Canadian system came a number of years back when there was a shortage of doctors. The shortage, it turned out, was due to doctors no longer wanting to spend 80 hours a day at work. They wanted to spend time with their families. Who knew. There were actually the same number of doctors per patient but with less hours worked, it required more doctors. It took a while to get the medical schools up to speed to get more doctors into the system. The numbers are still climbing.

I like it because I can walk into my doctors office at any time and get treatment, money or not. No one gets turned away. Taking care of the less fortunate is the right thing to do.

[athomas]

Health care is expensive because some body else pays for it and not you. Replacing the evil insurance companies witth the nanny gov't doesn't change that dynamic. Until the system is consumer driven and not third party the costs will never come down.

Not always true. If I am a drug company that has the only drug that can save your life, how much are you willing to pay? That is what drives my market. If I can sell it to 1000 people at $500,000 each, I will make way more money that selling it to 1,000,000 people at $500 each when $500 is all the general market can bear. Its the same amount of money changing hands, but my administrative and production costs are much lower, so I am in better financial condition selling to only 1000 of the richer people. Its not right, but its capitalism.

[DevilMan]

How many of you all have read the bill? Have looked over its endless pages? I admit I have not.

I don't need to. My doubts come from the government in general. The bank bailout that they did where WE paid millions so that banks could have million dollar parties and retirement payouts? The automotive save, that saved what??? A whole lot of nothing. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Need I say more? That's my issue. There is enough of the people that are against this. I agree that the Obama telling them all to fall on the sword now to pass the bill against the peoples wishes that they are supposed to be representing is just WRONG! How could that be seen as legal, or proper in any sense?

Just a few things that I gleam from the web here and there. Oh and since some of you are so hard core on calling out to people that "what do you know!" and "yeah you are the authority" and all the other crap. I challenge ANY of you calling it out to read the entire bill from front to back before you make any more challenges to others. Until you do, you are NO better than anyone else and in fact are even more of a loser for doing so. Nothing like telling someone they are wrong when you yourself have no freakin idea what's going on!

Thomas Edwards, editor of The River Cities Tribune, was contacted to get legal permission to quote David Kithil's comments. Permission was granted, so here are excerpts from the article, giving EXACT pages and paragraphs in the bill and why it is so bad.

You can forward this to all of your email contacts. I think Judge Kithil hits everything right on the head, and the opposition you may encounter cannot argue over these points:

JUDGE KITHIL wrote:

"I have reviewed selected sections of the bill and find it unbelievable that our Congress, led by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, could come up with a bill
loaded with so many wrong-headed elements.

We do need to reform the health insurance system in America in order to make coverage affordable and available to everyone. But, how many of us believe our federal government can manage a new program any better than the bankrupt Medicare program or the underfunded Social Security program?

"Both Republicans and Democrats are equally responsible for the financial mess of those two programs.

"I am opposed to HB 3200 for a number of reasons. To start with, it is estimated that a federal breaucracy of more than 150,000 new employees
will be required to administer HB3200. That is an unacceptable expansion of a government that is already too intrusive in our lives. If we are going to hire 150,000 new employees, let's put them to work protecting our borders, fighting the massive drug problem and putting more law enforcement / firefighters out there."

NOW, here comes the good stuff:

JUDGE KITHIL continued: "Other problems I have with this bill include:

** Page 50/section 152: The bill will provide insurance to all non-U.S. residents, even if they are here illegally.

** Page 58 and 59: The government will have real-time access to an individual's bank account and will have the authority to make electronic fund transfers from those accounts.

** Page 65/section 164: The plan will be subsidized (by the government) for all union members, union retirees and for community organizations
(such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now -ACORN).

** Page 203/line 14-15: The tax imposed under this section will not be treated as a tax. (How could anybody in their right mind come up with that?)

** Page 241 and 253: Doctors will all be paid the same regardless of specialty, and the government will set all doctors' fees.

** Page 272. section 1145: Cancer hospital will ration care according to the patient's age.

** Page 317 and 321: The government will impose a prohibition on hospital expansion;however, communities may petition for an exception.

** Page 425, line 4-12: The government mandates advance-care planning consultations. Those on Social Security will be required to attend an
"end-of-life planning" seminar every five years.

** Page 429, line 13-25: The government will specify which doctors can write an end-of-life order.

HAD ENOUGH???? Judge Kithil then goes on:

"Finally, it is specifically stated this bill will not apply to members of Congress. Members of Congress are already exempt from the Social
Security system and have a well-funded private plan that covers their retirement needs. If they were on our Social Security plan, I believe they would find a very quick 'fix' to make the plan financially sound for the future."

Honorable David Kithil
Marble Falls , Texas

[going_home]

Tin foil lined coffee cans will be back in vogue soon.

http://www.instructables.com/id/RFID-Secure-Wallet

For those that actually have money left after the osama-rama bama lama ding dong communistic destruction of the greatest nation on earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCd3YLAn8Kw&feature=player_embedded#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTa8oviCPt8&feature=player_embedded

http://www.idstronghold.com

[drg]

The Canadian healthcare system is far from excellent.

I have a huge number of relatives in Canada (something around 150+ cousins/aunts/uncles at last count) and I've heard plenty of negative comments.

First off, wait times. You are entitled to care, but you aren't entitled to get it fast. I've heard from a few of my relatives that one of my uncles would still be alive today if he had been treated in the States, but because he was in Canada and was put on a wait list before he could receive surgery, he died while he was waiting.

I've also heard that since doctors are paid so little to work in the public hospitals, the best ones either go into private practice or come to the US. So you end up being treated by the doctors who aren't good enough to go somewhere else.

Basically, costs aside, most of my relatives, especially the older ones who have the most medical need, prefer US medical care. I know at least one of my great uncles came to the US to receive care because he didn't trust the Canadian system.

The Canadian system may be great for basic care for those who don't have money, but overall it is far from "excellent".

Please contextualize this, when did this happen? Because in times past, yes wait times were a known issue with the Canadian system. In recent times, the government has been making a concerted effort to fix that issue. Such a targeted, comprehensive effort is not possible in a privatized system.

Also due to currency values, doing just about anything in the US was FAR more profitable for Canadians in years past, not so much these days.

How many of you all have read the bill? Have looked over its endless pages? I admit I have not.

You don't need to read the whole thing to see what is in it, there are summaries, both public and private, for that purpose.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.3590: (click on CRS summary)
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.4872: (click on CRS summary)

I have actually read a lot of the actual text on a lot of the salient points. There's nothing sinister to be found there that summaries don't cover.

I don't need to. My doubts come from the government in general. The bank bailout that they did where WE paid millions so that banks could have million dollar parties and retirement payouts? The automotive save, that saved what??? A whole lot of nothing. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Need I say more? That's my issue.

All of these issues are a lot more complicated than you let on. Government isn't wrong because banks misused some of the bailout money -- that's on the banks. If anything government didn't get involved ENOUGH. The auto industry bailout saved the largest manufacturing industry in the nation, a HUGE number of jobs and a tremendous amount of economic output potential. We absolutely cannot lose more of our manufacturing capacity, cars are perhaps our premier product. All of the saved companies are still around, and those bailouts were TINY (and entirely loans) compared to the financial bailouts. The situation with Fannie and Freddie is far too complicated to explain fully here, but bottom line is they were good institutions that were victims of the deregulatory excess of the private market.

IThere is enough of the people that are against this. I agree that the Obama telling them all to fall on the sword now to pass the bill against the peoples wishes that they are supposed to be representing is just WRONG! How could that be seen as legal, or proper in any sense?

The point of a representative government is ostensibly to prevent the ignorance of the masses causing undesirable results in governance. Given that people have a problem with the legislative process but support reform, it is a perfectly proper move to have passed reform. We know that a tremendous amount of mistruth and distortion has been applied against the legislative process, and the point of having representatives is to prevent the passions of the masses from getting the wrong idea and forcing bad policy.

Just a few things that I gleam from the web here and there. Oh and since some of you are so hard core on calling out to people that "what do you know!" and "yeah you are the authority" and all the other crap. I challenge ANY of you calling it out to read the entire bill from front to back before you make any more challenges to others. Until you do, you are NO better than anyone else and in fact are even more of a loser for doing so. Nothing like telling someone they are wrong when you yourself have no freakin idea what's going on!

The first thing you will notice about actually looking at the legislation is that they are: HR 3590 and 4872, not HR 3200. So posting a chain email about HR 3200 is nonsense to begin with, but on top of that, that email is almost completely false.

[Lohman446]

Actually XM15 has a point here. My insurance company will pay for my yearly physical for me. It adds about $500 to the premium of a catastrophic policy and they will cover up to a $300 physical. Great deal as long as I am not paying the premium huh?

Because I pay for my own and my doctor knows me its under $200. He does not check my cholesterol through blood work but other than that its fairly thorough. I don't eat meat and I am in reasonable health we (that would be he and I) have decided the blood work is not worth it.

If I was not paying would I care if it was worth it? No, and people have demonstrated this time and time again. Personally I beleive everyone should be required (if we are going to have any requirement) to carry a catastrophic policy (5K, 10K, take your pick), and pay all out of pocket costs below that. Ok, lets use medicaide / medicare to help out those who cannot afford that, as we already do. Time and time again the free market has demonstrated putting control in consumers hands WILL reduce cost.

As to the argument "you don't care what it costs to save your life". Could be, but insurance companies do. You are fooling yourself (unless you are uber rich) if you think you are getting the past possible care from your doctor / insurance company.

[chafnerjr]

I agree with Lohman446 and DevilMan. DRG you can't fault him on quoting the wrong bill because there have been so many. Out of those many, most we're debated on behind closed doors with exceptionally little time for anyone even in the government to read it over. Don't you see that at least "something" is being pulled over your eyes?

In the end this IS a major step towards becoming a full fledged socialist state. In the same calibre as social security and even more flawed. How long until you can't get salt at a local eatery (think demolition man) because it clogs your arteries and causes health costs for everyone to go up and that's not fair. You HAVE to get in line and be healthy or YOU are bringing everyone down... right?

I know your going to say that I'm stretching it, but I'm really not. Since I've given much information regarding my issues on constitutionality, statements from our elected officials as well as many other factual points. These points have been fairly ignored in the arguments from the "for social health care" side of things I may as well venture into conjecture.

P.S. After some thinking I've realized that this bill is "probably" also in violation of the 4th amendment as well. Since when does the government have the right to my medical records?

[drg]

I agree with Lohman446 and DevilMan. DRG you can't fault him on quoting the wrong bill because there have been so many. Out of those many, most we're debated on behind closed doors with exceptionally little time for anyone even in the government to read it over. Don't you see that at least "something" is being pulled over your eyes?

Of course I can fault him. First, that email quoted is nearly completely false, and it was debunked a long time ago. Second, there aren't many bills, there is one law now. There is no excuse for getting it wrong now. No, none of them were debated behind closed doors. There was plenty of time to know what was in them. If >I< knew what was in them, you can be sure that legislators knew what was in there.

The only thing over anyone's eyes are reform opponents' hands over their own eyes. It's all out there in black and white, and has been for quite some time.

And the final reform hews pretty darn closely to Obama's campaign promises.

[DevilMan]

I'm sorry... I guess my point was missed. The point I was making is the fact that there are some stupid things trying to be pushed through. And that is FACT. When the majority of the populace opposes what is being done, then how is it proper that those in office are pushing it through? Do you mean to tell me that it has NOT been said by the Obama faction to not to worry about your political career in Nov, just go ahead and push it through. Are you sure that they Obama faction is NOT going out to try and raise money for these people NOW that they have chosen to push it through?

You know what this country needs is NOT more government controlling crap. 1. The gov needs to straighten out the crap they have already started. The gov needs to worry about FOREIGN relations. There are LOCAL, COUNTY and STATE elected officials to take care of their sectors! This is what the whole freakin system is supposed to be about! NOT about a bunch of people in far away lands that couldn't name the capital of 30 of the 50 states making decisions for those people!

What's the freakin point of having ANY of this crap if it's all just going to get overruled and thrown out on the national level? Where is the system then? IT ISN"T!!!! It's called tyranny!

That's MY point! The gov in itself is corrupt and broken and needs the overhaul!!!! THEN they may be able to overhaul something else. Until then, it's the idiots ruling with idiocy!

That's my .02

DM

[Hgblues]

lol, Theres a banner at the top of my page that says " Get Free Health Insurance Quotes"


I didn't think any president could damage the economy of the US more than Clinton did with his wonderful Free Trade agreement that gradually sent all of our jobs overseas. I was wrong. Hussein has already cost the country no telling how much simply in campaign dollars pushing this Healthcare bill down our throat just to have his name attached to something important. It's obvious he knows nothing about our economy, our military, or our foreign affairs. His friends have 8 months to update their resume's and he has 2 years to complete his term as the most failed US president in recent history.

[drg]

I'm sorry... I guess my point was missed. The point I was making is the fact that there are some stupid things trying to be pushed through. And that is FACT. When the majority of the populace opposes what is being done, then how is it proper that those in office are pushing it through? Do you mean to tell me that it has NOT been said by the Obama faction to not to worry about your political career in Nov, just go ahead and push it through. Are you sure that they Obama faction is NOT going out to try and raise money for these people NOW that they have chosen to push it through?

You know what this country needs is NOT more government controlling crap. 1. The gov needs to straighten out the crap they have already started. The gov needs to worry about FOREIGN relations. There are LOCAL, COUNTY and STATE elected officials to take care of their sectors! This is what the whole freakin system is supposed to be about! NOT about a bunch of people in far away lands that couldn't name the capital of 30 of the 50 states making decisions for those people!

What's the freakin point of having ANY of this crap if it's all just going to get overruled and thrown out on the national level? Where is the system then? IT ISN"T!!!! It's called tyranny!

That's MY point! The gov in itself is corrupt and broken and needs the overhaul!!!! THEN they may be able to overhaul something else. Until then, it's the idiots ruling with idiocy!

That's my .02

DM

Anger doesn't replace critical thought. That you're mad and think things are bad doesn't excuse you from sticking to the truth in forming your opinions.

Funny thing is, if you do stick to the truth, there isn't much to be mad about, and things are heading in the right direction. For various items of universal national interest, federal solutions are in fact more desirable. Without federal standards, what happens is states end up waging economic war against each other.

[DevilMan]

Anger doesn't replace critical thought. That you're mad and think things are bad doesn't excuse you from sticking to the truth in forming your opinions.

Funny thing is, if you do stick to the truth, there isn't much to be mad about, and things are heading in the right direction. For various items of universal national interest, federal solutions are in fact more desirable. Without federal standards, what happens is states end up waging economic war against each other.

ummmm... economic war is what built this nation. It's called free trade for a reason. If everything is regulated and sanctioned to the extent that there is no change or value added by going elsewhere then what's the point? Nascar comes to mind.

It's BS then, now and in the future.

And again... having any thought that the gov can correctly do something in this day and age is a fairy tale.

The best part of your whole defense to me though is this... in 3 years when you jack up your knee or leg or back or some other body part playing a game of PB somewhere, and go in for treatment and then get told to take a hike and wait in line and fill out the forms only to find that the insurance you are forced to have is gonna drop your *beast of burden* like a hot potato for participating in a "known dangerous and injury prone activity" and you lose your house, your wife, your job and everything else because you can't work because you are broken, you can't get medical care, because you get to get in line, and you can't do squat about any of it but come on here and *female dog* and moan about it... I do hope I'm around to link you to this thread when it happens.

Then we'll get to see how great the system is.

BTW, there is a substantial difference in having logical regulations such as drinking ages and price levels of things and having a forced down your throat ruling on something that they know they can't control.

Do you recall what the issue was when it went to federally mandated auto insurance???

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

Tin foil lined coffee cans will be back in vogue soon.

http://www.instructables.com/id/RFID-Secure-Wallet

Already got one. Had it for 9 years or so, since the college I was attending mandated RFID chips school IDs. I was friends with a security guard (in a sociology class with me) who told me that all 5 schools in the collaborative (including a Umass school) use a tracking system that logs you when ever you walk through a door, even if you don't use your card to open it. I didn't believe him until he copied down a list of every campus building including my dorm and dorm room specifically that I'd walked through over the weekend, with accurate timestamps on each.

Most people aren't aware of what the REAL ID Act entails, mostly because most people don't know it exists and those that do know about it for the most part don't care to dig up the details and read the fine print. It's a bigger invasion of privacy than the e911 system, which is used to track people who haven't actually called 911... But only 5% of the time it's used At least you can choose whether to buy a cellphone or not...