*Coming Soon* Immigration Reform

[DevilMan]

It's not realistic or practical to maintain such a narrow worldview. What happens in other states, especially in areas relating to human or civil rights, affects all states.

I really love the fact that you and CP both have no clue about what I've done in my life and yet you still seem to think you have a basis to say I have a narrow "worldview"

How many states have you been to?

How many have you lived in??

How many countries have you been to?

How many third world countries have you been to?

How many dirt road "cities" have you been to?

You answer first and I'll fill you in on my travels little mr narrow worldview.

DM

[DevilMan]

And while you are at it, why don't you come out and tell us all exactly why you think that people that commit crimes should not be punished.

DM

[Destructo6]

I can tell you what it's like to live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority ... a law like this would never be passed here because its inherent discrimination would potentially affect too many people. It's much more blatantly obvious in a state with demographics like mine. Laws like this only happen in states with big white majorities. You live in the #1 immigration state in the nation -- do you think a law like this would pass in California today?

In California? Certainly not. California considers itself something of a sactuary state. I've prosecuted, literally, hundreds of illegal aliens that have extensive criminal records in CA, yet were never referred to ICE, even while serving long sentances. Tell me why CA wouldn't want an aggravated felon removed from their jurisdiction, at least for a time.

[MoeMag]

In California? Certainly not. California considers itself something of a sactuary state. I've prosecuted, literally, hundreds of illegal aliens that have extensive criminal records in CA, yet were never referred to ICE, even while serving long sentances. Tell me why CA wouldn't want an aggravated felon removed from their jurisdiction, at least for a time.

Because they dont mind paying for people taking advantage of the system apparently. I know I would be irritated if my state gave me an IOU for a tax return.

[zondo]

I can tell you what it's like to live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority ... a law like this would never be passed here because its inherent discrimination would potentially affect too many people. It's much more blatantly obvious in a state with demographics like mine. Laws like this only happen in states with big white majorities. You live in the #1 immigration state in the nation -- do you think a law like this would pass in California today?

I don't know, but California did pass prop 187 and prop 209.

Which are much different laws, and 187 was struck down.

Yes, both are much different laws, but the basis were generally the same. Your charge was that laws with "inherent discrimination" happen in states with a white majority, but both of these propositions: 187 to deny illegals access to social services, health care, etc.; and 209 to prohibit CA public institutions to consider race, sex, or ethnicity were both passed by popular vote by the public that "live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority". In fact, 187 looks like it was passed 59%-41%. 187 was found unconstitutional by a federal court, which is not by popular vote.

[DevilMan]

Yes, both are much different laws, but the basis were generally the same. Your charge was that laws with "inherent discrimination" happen in states with a white majority, but both of these propositions: 187 to deny illegals access to social services, health care, etc.; and 209 to prohibit CA public institutions to consider race, sex, or ethnicity were both passed by popular vote by the public that "live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority". In fact, 187 looks like it was passed 59%-41%. 187 was found unconstitutional by a federal court, which is not by popular vote.

Which I found interesting that they state that no education based money can be restricted due to race, religion, sex, etc... And at the same time they give out grants/scholarships to "minorities" in which a state that has a white minority makes no damn sense does it...

You've said it yourself DRG... In states that have a white minority.... Why is it that in those states that whites don't get the "special" benefits that blacks, hispanics, etc get because they are a "minority" even though it's stated that no state or federal funds can be issued based on anything...

hmmmm... sounds like a run around if ya ask me. Why is it that BET is allowed to exist and not considered racist? Why is it that they can have a "Black Miss America" contest? Do you ever look at the other side of the coin?

And again... I'll ask you...

Do you think someone who breaks the law should be punished?
Do you think someone caught wiping while playing PB should be reprimanded?
Do you think that cheaters should be rewarded?

3 simple questions for you.

DM

[drg]

Yes, both are much different laws, but the basis were generally the same. Your charge was that laws with "inherent discrimination" happen in states with a white majority, but both of these propositions: 187 to deny illegals access to social services, health care, etc.; and 209 to prohibit CA public institutions to consider race, sex, or ethnicity were both passed by popular vote by the public that "live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority". In fact, 187 looks like it was passed 59%-41%. 187 was found unconstitutional by a federal court, which is not by popular vote.

Actually no, California still to this day has a white plurality. 187 was quite different in that it arguably did not require racial discrimination; since it was for services proactively sought by the individuals in question it could be applied completely race-blind. And it still was struck down.

209 on its face is not discriminatory, despite its discriminatory effect. This makes it easier to sell to a populace. Given a less ideological review and continued pursuit, 209 may be struck down as well.

Do note that both of these measures were initiatives, which lowers the bar significantly for getting laws passed. The fact that the political climate no longer would support similar measures illustrates the effect of the decreasing white plurality and a greater general understanding of civil rights as engendered by such events as the striking down of 187.

You've said it yourself DRG... In states that have a white minority.... Why is it that in those states that whites don't get the "special" benefits that blacks, hispanics, etc get because they are a "minority" even though it's stated that no state or federal funds can be issued based on anything...

Quite simple, because those "benefits" are intended to address social inequalities that are race-delinated due to historic racial discrimination. They are NOT solely race-based.

But it's not entirely true that whites receive no "benefits" as a minority group ... there are quite a few legal actions in my state attempting to rectify perceived discrimination against whites, and the majority of officially recorded hate crimes locally are against white people. And any diversity programs would positively affect whites if they are underrepresented.

[DevilMan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100501/ap_on_re_us/us_arizona_deputy_shot

DM

[DevilMan]

So you take the time to read my reply, to quote my reply and to make a reply to my reply... and yet you still fail to answer 3 simple questions.

Want to try it again? Go for it.. I think you can... The rest of us I think would be able to provide moral support to you if you need it...

Try it again...

Oh and check this...

1 Sec. 5. Title 13, chapter 29, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by
2 adding sections 13-2928 and 13-2929, to read:
3 13-2928. Unlawful stopping to hire and pick up passengers for
4 work; unlawful application, solicitation or
5 employment; classification; definitions
6 A. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR AN OCCUPANT OF A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS STOPPED
7 ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY TO ATTEMPT TO HIRE OR HIRE AND PICK UP
8 PASSENGERS FOR WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR
9 IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.
10 B. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON TO ENTER A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS
11 STOPPED ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY IN ORDER TO BE HIRED BY AN OCCUPANT
12 OF THE MOTOR VEHICLE AND TO BE TRANSPORTED TO WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF
13 THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.
14 C. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED
15 STATES AND WHO IS AN UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN TO KNOWINGLY APPLY FOR WORK, SOLICIT
16 WORK IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR PERFORM WORK AS AN EMPLOYEE OR INDEPENDENT
17 CONTRACTOR IN THIS STATE.
18 D. A VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION IS A CLASS 1 MISDEMEANOR.
19 E. FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION:
20 1. "SOLICIT" MEANS VERBAL OR NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION BY A GESTURE OR A
21 NOD THAT WOULD INDICATE TO A REASONABLE PERSON THAT A PERSON IS WILLING TO BE
22 EMPLOYED.
23 2. "UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN" MEANS AN ALIEN WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE LEGAL
24 RIGHT OR AUTHORIZATION UNDER FEDERAL LAW TO WORK IN THE UNITED STATES AS
25 DESCRIBED IN 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1324a(h)(3).

What exactly do you find wrong with this part of the bill? Don't worry.. you can think about it... Go ahead and try for those 3 other ones first...

DM

[DevilMan]

So still no answer??? Wow... what's wrong guys? No idea? come on... you are much more enlightened than that surely....

Here's another nut to crack for ya.... just hope your synapses can handle it...

You are aware of this thing called a RECESSION that has hit the US as well as other parts of the world right? You are aware of this thing called NATIONAL DEBT right?

You are aware that there are costs associated with coming here legally. You know... paper filing costs and what not... Oh I know it's some ungodly amount I'm sure. But you are also aware that those fees go towards the overall cost of having someone here... you know... Like education, and medical and all the other little social services and what not.... So now you take someone who skips all of those fees and comes here... They make money... UNDER THE TABLE... so there are no taxes gathered on it. So what do you think? Fair ??? You are aware those taxes are to support the local community, healthcare, education, law enforcement, etc right??? So what happens when all of that money is instead sent back south across the border to their community to help pay another coyote for another shipment of more illegals as well as drugs back north?

What do you think the end result is going to be? Surely it's not that difficult to figure out is it?

So yeah... I'm sure there is exactly ZERO correlation between the debt that this country is in, and the number of people abusing the system and raping the social/federal systems of money that they will gladly take from and never put in to.

Tell me this... Do you get retirement benefits from a company you have never worked for? What about medical benefits, just because you know someone who works at that company that gets the benefits? What about unemployment and education benefits from a state that you have never lived in just because you think you should get it?

Oh no.... more questions that I'm sure are illogical, immature, and are very "narrow world view" based.

But I'm betting that they are questions that you can't find a logical reason/reply to... Other than something along the lines of "It's the RIGHTS fault!" "The LEFTIST IS THE BESTEST!!!" crap.... See if for one post you can leave that out of it...

Good luck...

DM

Oh and just some other points to ponder for anyone else who reads this, don't know what the think, and don't want to get into the middle of it, because I know there are more than a few of you that agree with me, and maybe a few that agree with CP and DRG... Come on and post up and be heard...

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

VIRGINIA - Virginia State Police contacted ICE for nearly 12,000 criminal inmates, but ICE picked up only 690.

http://www.csg.org/knowledgecenter/docs/TIAImmigrationEnforcement.pdf

UTAH and ARIZONA - In Utah, over 50,000 kids social security numbers have been fraudulently used by illegal aliens. In Arizona over one million numbers are being used, causing permanent damage to the childrens' SSNs. Kids stolen SSNs used by illegal aliens across the country is in the millions and the Social Security Administration fails to act.

http://www.alipac.us/article4570.html

U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER - 14 Feburary, 2010. Using one hidden camera placed on one trail four miles north of the U.S. border, over 400 illegal aliens recorded within 35 days. It is estimated that up to 1000 remote trails exist where several thousand illegal entries occur every month

http://www.borderinvasionpics.com/privateshowing/BIPevidence1.html

UNITED STATES - 28 October, 2009. Less than one out of 20 illegal aliens currently do farm labor.

More than 80 percent of those on deportation orders are still in the country. Justice Department is flying over 300 lawyers around the country to win costly deportation cases in federal appeals courts yet ICE still fails to deport.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/02/18/justice-department-fail-enforce-deportation-orders/

WASHINGTON, DC - Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens are comitting felony document fraud by using fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment. The Social Security Administration and Internal Revenue Service facilitate illegal immigrant-driven identity theft. Both turn a blind eye to massive SSN fraud and take no action to stop it. Many illegal aliens use a combination of Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers (ITIN) and fraudulent SSNs to obtain tax refunds that they are not entitled to. The IRS has issued about 15 million ITINs since 1996, with a large share believed to be assigned to illegal aliens.

http://www.cis.org/identitytheft

Just a few points to ponder for the masses... Oh I know CP and DRG... these are all made up and BS stories and have no foundation and are written by homophobic jingoists with also a lack of understanding of the real world and who I'm sure can't understand anything that's in black and white...

Since 1929 illegal entry into the United States is a federal crime, up to six months in prison for the first offense and 20 years for the second offense. Hiring illegal immigrants carries a maximum penalty under federal statute of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

The CIA reports that the Mexican unemployment rate was recently only 4%, lower than 150 other countries and lower than the unemployment rate of the United States.

Mexico is ranked #13 in GDP, higher than 172 countries.

Mexico is home to the richest man in the world, has nine billionaires and has more millionaires than Germany.

WASHINGTON, DC - 23 March, 2010. They say there's no benefits for the undocumented in the Healthcare Reform Bill HR 3200? Does "you lie" sound familiar? There's nothing in the 'comprehensive' bill to end the estimated 400,000, $6B per year birthright citizenships. In addition to massive paternity costs, through the 'anchor child' the illegal family members receive public housing assistance and a full range of taxpayer funded services. Emergency rooms will continue to be used for A-Z healthcare. Using rampant ID fraud there's no reliable method to prevent illegals from enrolling into the new programs USDA WIC benefits will continue without legal status verifications.

WASHINGTON, DC - Over 27 stimulus money grants for anti-enforcement group National Council of La Raza. NCLR gave their "Chicano Hero Award" to Jose Angel Gutierrez."

CALIFORNIA - 16 Jan, 2010. Gov. Schwarzenegger says illegal aliens have cost his state billions of dollars for providing social programs, education and health care and other services. He vows to fight for $6.9 billion reimbursement from federal government.

5 Feb, 2010. California now spending roughly $1 billion dollars per year to jail criminal illegal aliens says H.D. Palmer, a spokesman for the state's finance department.

NEW YORK, NY - CBS Evening News video clip on the estimated 300,000 "anchor babies" born in the U.S. annually. Illegal Immigrant Births - At Your Expense.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/07/eveningnews/main4000401.shtml

DM

Oh and I know it may be a bit overwhelming for ya... but don't forget those other questions I asked... Alright?

[DevilMan]

This one is so good it deserves its own post...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N98MlXO8Yc

So how do you think the person in the BLUE car came out in the end?

DM

Is it alright if I say something like too bad it wasn't someone in particular?

[MoeMag]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36884616/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Just read.

[busby]

interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RJtaAIk-LU

[DevilMan]

Both of those topics have been mentioned guys... but thank you for the links just the same...

Of course CP and DRG's thoughts would be ~>

"But this is America, Not Mexico... We are better than that and should allow anyone and everyone across the border with no questions asked."

That and...

"Well it is only SUSPECTED that it was an illegal alien that did the shooting, no one knows for sure that they were, because they weren't caught.... So really it's not about illegals at all, but about drugs."

Again thanx for the video links... I'm thinking it may be easier for those than actually reading some of the links I posted up... There is a bit to wade through.

DM

[DevilMan]

Well after a few other "discussions" about this matter, I thought I'd share some more info gathered gleamed so that a few more of you may understand this a bit more. For those of you that have not read any of the bill and still have your undies all twisted here is the part that is causing the stink.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
27 C. IF AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IS
28 CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF STATE OR LOCAL LAW, ON DISCHARGE FROM
29 IMPRISONMENT OR ASSESSMENT OF ANY FINE THAT IS IMPOSED, THE ALIEN SHALL BE
30 TRANSFERRED IMMEDIATELY TO THE CUSTODY OF THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND
31 CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION.

If you can read English then you can notice that this states that if contact is made with an LEO for any lawful reason (If an LEO has reason to stop you in the beginning... traffic violation, robbery, etc) and it comes into question whether or not you are here legally (can't provide a drivers license, or a state/federal form of ID, which BY LAW you are REQUIRED to produce IF STOPPED BY AN LEO "Name, Address, AND ID IF ASKED" is what the law states. Of which LYING TO AN LEO IS A CRIME AS WELL.) Then with that reason you can be detained and processed because you can't prove your status.

PART C READS...

That if you are already incarcerated (aka in jail, prison, etc) and it is ALREADY ESTABLISHED that you are an ILLEGALLY PRESENT PERSON that you will NOT BE TURNED BACK OUT ON THE STREET at the end of your sentence, but instead will be turned over to ICE or BP. ICE and BP have a duty and responsibility to move you back across the border BY LAW! It is WHAT THEIR JOB IS!

It is a change in the matter from before where it was a matter of being turned back out on the street after doing the time (What were you in jail for in the first place?) Usually traffic stops won't land you in jail for doing 10MPH over the limit, if you get my meaning. If you don't (I know some of you are a bit daft sometimes.) It means that YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN TRIED AND FOUND GUILTY OF A CRIME WORTHY OF JAIL TIME! Look at it this way. IF YOU are a convicted felon in Florida, and are wanted on charges and have a warrant for your arrest out on you, and you get stopped in AK (That's Alaska) for a traffic stop or a busted tail light, then that officer has a duty to stop you, detain you, and turn you over to Florida LEO's. DO THEY NOT????

So this is simply saying... Instead of catching someone who is here illegally (Crime #1) for doing a crime (Robbery, Homicide, Etc) making them do their time in jail, and then RELEASING THEM BACK INTO THE "WILD" that instead they will be turned over to ICE or BP for removal from the US. INSTEAD of what was previously done as, released back into the populace and ICE or BP have to catch you to deport you. Where ICE and BP have failed to do their jobs in the past, AZ is tired of it, and has passed this with 70% support by the populace!!! When was the last time ANYTHING in DC passed with 70% other than their own pay raise?

If you are an international fugitive and get stopped for anything it is the LEO's duty to detain you and turn you back over to the proper authorities IF that is the proper agreement between the nations. It is their JOB.

All this is doing is holding ICE and BP to doing their job.

Does this clear it up for some of you?

DM