From America...

[devildog]

that first story was awesome, its amazing how much the corps drills troop welfare into you, from day 1 of bootcamp, the simplest tasks were manipulated to teach us to work together and help each other,we all really are brothers, id jump on a grenade for anyone on the battlefield with me, or any civilian back home here.

i wish they advertised the pro war rallies as much as the anti war ones, its amazing how much motivation you get from seeing people support the troops.......

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Kai
...The main reason I even have anti-war messages in my signature is to let people know that not EVERYONE here at AO supports the war.

And I have had complaints about yours and I am ignoring them. I do not agree with your relating two seperate things as if they are somehow one excludes dealing with the other. I find that argument defeatest and conveniently lacking of pursuasion. but I am allowing you to keep it there because in my opinion it should not offend anyone. And your actions have been resonable about it.

I might also point out that no one here Supports War. In general. We support the protection of the US and we support the removal of Saddam. For many various reasons. But simple stating we are supporting "war" is an old trick. Many causes use that one and I myself never let it slide.

Let me relate one similar story to you about this. I once was in my Doctors office waiting to be seen. A woman came around trying to get people to sign a petition that was "Anti Abortion". A few people signed it and I noticed they were uncomfortable doing so. I was hoping she would not come around to me but she did. I looked at it and it was stated in there that you were "Against Abortion" or you were "For it". I myself find these things a little more complex! I am not "FOR ABORTION" but then again I recognise as I am, I like to think, a resonably intelligent person there is sometimes a need and purpose and even though its a hard thing to do (or should be). And that I feel its not my place to say what one should do or not within reason. So I handed the thing back to her and fairly loudly said. "Mame,I hate to disagree and I am generaly opposed to abortions but I still am "Pro Choice" as I realy think its way more complicated than your petition makes it out to be and I realy think such things should be decided by the woman, her family, her religeon and her Doctor and not in a court of law by petitions of someone who doesn't know her situation". She seemed shocked and quickly moved on. But all the sudden her signatures vanished. No one was signing it and were telling her they were "Pro Choice" also. Not Pro Abortion. Which she wanted to portray. I mean what did it realy mean to say "Pro Choice" vs. "Pro Abortion". ALOT!!!

So lets not play games here with words ok? You can have your say but you do not have the right to place judgements onto me as to what I am for or against. Got it? I am generaly against war. I am however mindfull that it sometimes is the only tool left.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Kai


What you said about illegal protesting only being good when fighting for freedoms, I agree with. Like I said...I, in NO way, support illegal protests of the war.

Good, that means you have SOME common sense!

I do not want to FORCE my oppinions on anyone, but the only way the government will know of my discontent with the war is to voice it. One of the beautiful things about America is that we CAN get things done with protests.

The better thing is that I can ignore or boo you if I want!

On a side note though, I no longer protest in order to get a stop to the war. I am a realist, and I know that once the gears started turning...there was no chance of Bush pulling out of Iraq. The main reason I even have anti-war messages in my signature is to let people know that not EVERYONE here at AO supports the war.

Deadeye, I will shoot you a PM concerning my views on the war.

I got your PM. I was just busting your stones earlier. As long as you have views, we can agree to disagree. I truly despise those who protest because they think it is the cool thing to do rather then the right one!

[Kai]

Phil, I am sorry if I made it sound like I believe all people who support action in Iraq are warmongers...that was unintentional. I should not have generalized in the way that I did.

Deadeye, thanks for actually reading the PM and sending the response.

I just want to get out there, that I am pro-troops. Now that we are actually in Iraq, I wish only for a swift(minimal casualty) American victory. I have heard stories of certain anti-war people going as far as to wish for an Iraqi victory, and that sickens me.

[CasingBill]

I can't stay out

Kai..Props for supporting the troops and not supporting the illegal rallies now that we are involved.

Did anyone hear today about the anti-war rally in Oakland,Ca. These people are trying to block supply shipments from being loaded on ships and taken to our troops. This really gets me hot. The organizer of this rally says he supports the troops and thinks they should come home. How does stopping supplies from reaching our troops on the battlefield show support? This really makes me mad. This is should be considered treason in my book. They are messing with soldiers lives.

[Flamebo]

At the risk of going against the popular belief in this thread (oh well) and being hated and insulted by many, I'd like to point out the extreme selective bias of this board.

If a story involving a protestor threatening to shove something up the *** of anyone pro-war, I would heartily expect it to be closed. Mods, before you argue that, take a moment to reconsider.

I find people like SprayingMango disturbing and I think he would show anyone that disagreed with him the true meaning of "police brutality" as long as he could get away with it. I can see how demoralizing you by pointing out logical disputes with your beliefs is grounds for a good ol' fashioned baton-beatdown.

The sad thing is, you people don't give a damn what America is actually SUPPOSED to stand for. Not this post-9/11 blind patriotism garbage that I expect to destroy the country from the inside-out, but standing up for your rights, and the freedom to disagree. 200 years ago, the people of this country waged grueling war against their own because of an unrepresented tax on tea, which to my understanding was somewhere around 1.5%, and I assure you that each and every one of us forks over a lot more to the government on oil, road tolls, various licensing fees, income taxes, sin taxes, sales taxes, and a hell of a lot more things that the people, even as a whole, could do nothing to prevent. They were just forced in without being checked because they were deemed necessary.

While I do not agree with the reasons ours soldiers are fighting an unsigned war in the Middle East, I do believe they have good intentions and hope for their speedy and safe return. However, to take an active part in the democracy for which so many lives have been lost, people need to be well-informed and not accept news from any source as their gospel. People need to learn to vote for the best candidate, not their favorite party. I guess nowadays most people would label me a liberal, but I fully support the right of all citizens to be as armed as they damn well please, which by most standards is a conservative policy.

People seem to believe that the media is thoroughly liberal-biased, but I'm definitley not seeing that. I haven't seen anything on any major networks that mention the (comically-named) Patriot Acts and how they were forced upon us in time of distress and the extent of how many of our natural-born rights are violated and removed by them. Not to mention Homeland Security and Operation: Iraqi Freedom. It's been 2 weeks into the war and there's no evidence of any banned weapons in Iraq, and it doesn't appear that these Iraqis want to be freed, unless the artilery rounds they continue to blast at coaltion troops are their way of saying "Thank you". The U.S. has said all along they had no interest in oil and that they wanted everyone's military support, but now that it's time to begin establishing a new government there they've made it perfectly clear that they want to do that part on their own. No economic interest, indeed.

Maybe I've gone too far in this thread, and now it probably belongs in the main Iraq thread. My main reson for posting was to point out how violent and unlawful (Constitutionally that is, I don't care who the hell tossed you a badge and told you that you have the power do whatever you like) people become when they strongly disagree with it -- especially when they disagree with it for the wrong reasons, and are wholly uninformed and ignorant to any new facts. I can't even imagine why "Make Peace Not War" could offend anyone except a facist or why it would upset people to the point of an urge towards violence.

Take a look at this woman, who was hit by either rubber bullets or wooden pellets fired from police shotguns. Do you really believe that she posed a violent threat to anyone, or that this force was necessary?


Something tells me they could have found more sensible ways to deal with this protestor, that didn't involve putting a tennisball-sized lump on her jaw, that could have hit easily her in the eye or temple and blinded or killed her. I'm certain handcuffs or zipline would have worked just fine, but if she resisted that a stun-gun/stun-baton could have easily been used without any danger of killing people.

That's enough for today, think what you like -- just think.

[CasingBill]

read the story

here's the link for that story. oakland protest I feel no pity for her. She was asked to remove herself from private property and responded by throwing rocks and bolts at police officers. She was also not alone in this. The police are doing their job. They were called to remove these people who were Illegally blocking private property. To make it worse they were trying to block supplies that needed to get to our troops. I hope she is in jail. She is a traitor to our servicemen. This goes beyond peaceful protest. She could have protested somewhere else and none of this would have happened. Again, she was on private property. But I guess you would still think thats ok.

p.s. Haven't these hippy peace protesters ever heard of conditioner?

[Load SM5]

Originally posted by Flamebo
It's been 2 weeks into the war and there's no evidence of any banned weapons in Iraq, and it doesn't appear that these Iraqis want to be freed, unless the artilery rounds they continue to blast at coaltion troops are their way of saying "Thank you". . [/B]

Scuds are banned weapons due to their range. Plenty of those have been fired. And we may have hit some very illegal weapons today. Evidence has been laying around for us to find since day 1.

Some of the Iraqi's that fight are either blindly loyal or being made to fight due to someone holding a gun to their wife or child's head. Quite a few seemed quite anxious to surrender. I suspect that when Saddam is gone we'll discover that more of the people who fought did so for reasons other than loyalty.

I feel no pity for that protester either. She was keeping needed supplies for getting to our troops and they started the violence by attacking the officers, first. Peace loving indeed. Unfortunately to use a stun gun or zip-cuffs you have to get close to a person. But with a crowd you can't do that without putting yourself in danger from the rest of the violent criminals (let's call them what they are).

[shartley]

[dansim]

you know what if you dont liek the way our country is, just get the hell out we really wont miss ya when yer gone

[Kai]

Originally posted by dansim
you know what if you dont liek the way our country is, just get the hell out we really wont miss ya when yer gone

You can't honestly believe that noone should ever try to change anything...can you?

[Flamebo]

Originally posted by shartley

Do you think the Longshoremen loading the docks were a part of the protest? The article quotes one of them saying that police were using excessive force. There were no distinctions made between who was actually causing violent crimes and who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If half a dozen Longshoremen were hit, then that should make it clear to you that it was shoot first, ask questions later. Accuracy by volume, as we say in paintball.

[Flamebo]

Originally posted by Load SM5


Scuds are banned weapons due to their range. Plenty of those have been fired. And we may have hit some very illegal weapons today. Evidence has been laying around for us to find since day 1.

Some of the Iraqi's that fight are either blindly loyal or being made to fight due to someone holding a gun to their wife or child's head. Quite a few seemed quite anxious to surrender. I suspect that when Saddam is gone we'll discover that more of the people who fought did so for reasons other than loyalty.

I feel no pity for that protester either. She was keeping needed supplies for getting to our troops and they started the violence by attacking the officers, first. Peace loving indeed. Unfortunately to use a stun gun or zip-cuffs you have to get close to a person. But with a crowd you can't do that without putting yourself in danger from the rest of the violent criminals (let's call them what they are).

In early attacks, it was believed that 2 SCUDS were fired, but there was evidence that they were another type of long-range missle that was not banned, and there has been no evidence that any other SCUDS have been fired.

Even so, it doesn't matter if they find 3,000 gallons of mustard gas in a warehouse somewhere. There are at least a dozen other countries committing atrocities against their people, who have made threatening statements towards the United States, and have clearly TOLD us they have banned weapons (North Korea). What are we doing about that? Nothing, because it's much less of a problem if you leave it alone. It is extremely clear to anyone who looks at the facts that there are much bigger motives in Iraq than "Iraqi Freedom".

[Flamebo]

Originally posted by Kai


You can't honestly believe that noone should ever try to change anything...can you?

It appears he just did. By that theory, the colonists should have just shut their mouths and moved to Greenland. Forget any logical reasoning.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by dansim
you know what if you dont liek the way our country is, just get the hell out we really wont miss ya when yer gone

I disagree with that. I think diversity of opinion and the right to express it is what makes this country stronger. And what is lacking in places like Iraq. My comment would be that if you do not like the way SOME things are and you can work within the system and change them... then do so. If you are right you will prevail if not then you won't but perhaps you will have some affect and make people think and modify. Sometimes there is a middle ground.

Kai, no problem. I know what you ment but it was an opportunity for me to make that point as well. I find your attitude in desent to be refreshing and honest.