wow Affirmative Action Upheld In Supreme Court

[Army]

Normally, when I see a Sam post, I begin to wince BEFORE I begin to read it:)

Not this time. Sam, you are 100% spot on. Your emotional return fire, while to some may seem petty, looks to me as righteous.

HOOAH!

[Viral]

Now wait a second. Just because I have an opinion that is different from yours, I'm somehow a jerk for stating it? You called me a jerk, ignorant and a horses rear no less than 5 times in your post. I never attacked you or called you names. I was simply debating your points from previous threads. But I'm the jerk... My sister was home schooled for several years and it was a huge mistake and a big issue in my family. So I do speak with at least a little experience.

Originally posted by shartley
Actually you could not be more wrong if you tried. She is not stupid, and she was failing because of non-interest.

You accused others of not reading your posts, well you must not have read mine clearly. I never stated your daughter was stupid. In fact, I quoted you as saying that she was NOT stupid. I only stated that "failing because of non-interest" is called laziness. If you are this upset because I pointed out that your intelligent daughter was about to fail out of school because of laziness, I'd say it must struck a chord of truth with you. Maybe I'm wrong...

Originally posted by shartley

I was making generalizations about public schools and home schooling. I never pointed out your specific situation at all. And of course you have every right the rebuke my comments. You have an opinion on home schooling, and so do I. They don't have to be the same, that's what makes America so great. But that doesn't make you a jerk. Or me. The only thing that makes a person a jerk to me is personal attacks for no reason.

Originally posted by shartley

I'm aware that those programs exists, but I don't know a single homeschooled child that participates in them. Maybe your daughter does and that's great. I just don't know any personally.

Originally posted by shartley

And that's totally your right, as it is mine. Don't like it? Tough.

Originally posted by shartley

I knew that would be a touchy subject. It always is for some reason. But underacheivement is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I probably shouldn't have even brought it up. And, once again, if you had read my post thoroughly, you would have seen that I never claimed to be "such an educated man." I stated that I don't have a college degree.

Look, I never intended to piss you off. Feel free to look around at my other posts on here. I'm a smart-*** sometimes, but I'm not confrontational. I don't go around stirring up trouble for the heck of it. But I do have strong opinions on education in this country and home schooling's effects on it. It just so happens that we don't agree. I'm not sure why this caused you to attack me personally, but I apologize for offending you.

--Viral

[shartley]

Originally posted by Viral
Now wait a second. Just because I have an opinion that is different from yours, I'm somehow a jerk for stating it? You called me a jerk, ignorant and a horses rear no less than 5 times in your post. I never attacked you or called you names. I was simply debating your points from previous threads. But I'm the jerk... My sister was home schooled for several years and it was a huge mistake and a big issue in my family. So I do speak with at least a little experience.

Originally posted by Viral
You accused others of not reading your posts, well you must not have read mine clearly. I never stated your daughter was stupid. In fact, I quoted you as saying that she was NOT stupid. I only stated that "failing because of non-interest" is called laziness. If you are this upset because I pointed out that your intelligent daughter was about to fail out of school because of laziness, I'd say it must struck a chord of truth with you. Maybe I'm wrong...

Originally posted by Viral
I was making generalizations about public schools and home schooling. I never pointed out your specific situation at all. And of course you have every right the rebuke my comments. You have an opinion on home schooling, and so do I. They don't have to be the same, that's what makes America so great. But that doesn't make you a jerk. Or me. The only thing that makes a person a jerk to me is personal attacks for no reason.

Originally posted by Viral
I'm aware that those programs exists, but I don't know a single homeschooled child that participates in them. Maybe your daughter does and that's great. I just don't know any personally.

Originally posted by Viral
And that's totally your right, as it is mine. Don't like it? Tough.

Originally posted by Viral
I knew that would be a touchy subject. It always is for some reason. But underacheivement is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I probably shouldn't have even brought it up. And, once again, if you had read my post thoroughly, you would have seen that I never claimed to be "such an educated man." I stated that I don't have a college degree.

Originally posted by Viral
Look, I never intended to piss you off. Feel free to look around at my other posts on here. I'm a smart-*** sometimes, but I'm not confrontational. I don't go around stirring up trouble for the heck of it. But I do have strong opinions on education in this country and home schooling's effects on it. It just so happens that we don't agree. I'm not sure why this caused you to attack me personally, but I apologize for offending you.

--Viral

[KHartley]

Viral:
I have a bit of a problem with you calling my daughter "lazy". She is far from it. She was also not "rewarded" for not attending school.

I do believe that just because you had a bad experience with home schooling (or your sister) that you shouldn't judge all home schooled kids.

Most of the kids around here that are home schooled graduate at least 1 year ahead of time.

When I home schooled the kids, we had to make a curriculum which had to be approved by the State Department of Education. I chose to go through a private school to get my material. The kids were far above the "public school" intellect when they returned. They loved home schooling. They could get up and go to "school" in their pj's, they went to the bathroom and ate when they were hungry. They finished their grade at least 2 months before "public" school was due to be let out for the summer. They had book reports to write just like any other kid. They had music class and all the other studies required for their age. They did play sports with our local school kids. I have no idea what happened in your case but you should not judge all home schooled kids by your bad experience.

I would appreciate it if you did not judge me, Sam or our children by what you think of home schooling. Our kids are not lazy.

And, as far as Sam coming on here on his "soap box"....I think that you did that quite well.

Now, I'm not saying that you do not have a right to your own opinion but to say that we are/were wrong to home school and that our kids were somehow affected by that is just plain wrong.

[ShooterJM]

A note on home schooling.


I was home schooled. My mom pulled my sister and I out of public school shortly after I finished the first grade. How were my grades? Not good, my mom still has my first grade report card with crappy grades because she thinks it's hilarious. Was I lazy? No I was bored. I got to sit through a bunch of first graders trying to learn the finer points of reading when I was reading civil war books in kindergarden. There is a distinct difference between laziness and boredom. I also was on many club swim teams and soccer teams. I can give you a rundown of my entire educational and social experiance if you'd like, but suffice it to say that home schooling, when done properly, encourages learning better then public schooling.

[aaron_mag]

Viral you are getting a little personal with Sam and we are getting way off topic. Also I was amazed to see Sam discuss each of his children and their aptitudes and desires with such logic. It is cool to see a parent say, "She has expressed an interest in this and I think it will make her happy so that is great". Some parents get hung up on living their dreams through their kids (and that usually makes everyone unhappy).

Also it is not good to judge something by one case. You say it was a disaster for your sister to be home schooled. Well that is only one case. I know others where it has been a success. I certainly won't second guess a parent on that decision and doubly so when you only know the kid through minor posts their parent has made over the internet!!!!

I know you weren't trying to get personal but as an impartial observer let me say you got yourself on thin ice!!! Don' mess with a mom!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
What mark would you use to tell if a school is falling behind or not. Would you use a nationwide standardized test, or student’s grades or what?

Standardized test scores. Teachers can be leaned upon to massage grades. Schools that score below some threshold, boom vouchers!

My two cents!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by MagDog68


I actually listen to NPR more than any other talk radio station. I guess I am a communist too. Or maybe I just don't agree with everything this country does just for the sake of "patriotism".

Or maybe you don't understand sarcasm?

[1stdeadeye]

Hey Viral,

Another term for lack of interest would be Boredom or disinterested.

I cruised through high shool without cracking a book til my senior year. That is when I went to my local community college to take AP classes. Why? I was a discipline problem because I would fall asleep in class, yet still ace it. Why... sheer boredom!

Probably better to just let this one go, eh?

Congrats on being in the 6 figure income range. I needed a college degree to get there though! Money doesn't always make us right. If it did, think about the smackdown I could lay on CollegeBoy!

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye

My two cents!

Yeah and that is about what your plan is worth! Taking a school that is intertwined with a community and dismantling it through vouchers is no way to build a better school in that community that the community can rely on.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


Yeah and that is about what your plan is worth! Taking a school that is intertwined with a community and dismantling it through vouchers is no way to build a better school in that community that the community can rely on.

To be honest with you, I don't really care! The kids are what is important, not some sacred cow institution. If these kids are better educated and can have a better life, how is that not going to improve the neighborhood?

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye

To be honest with you, I don't really care! The kids are what is important, not some sacred cow institution. If these kids are better educated and can have a better life, how is that not going to improve the neighborhood?

I actually do understand where you are going with the sacred cow thing. Here in Oregon our schools are short on funding and a statewide election turned down more taxes. Pick up a paper and you can see some teacher talking about how dissappointing it is that the people are turning their backs on kids.

The sad thing is that our school system in Oregon is one of the top spenders per student on administration (I think only Rhode Island is Higher) and is one of the lower spenders per student on classroom spending. Is it any wonder that tax payers are fed up and say enough is enough? Teachers in Oregon retire with 100% of their salary. In California where my Uncle works they retire with around 60% of their salary. Most retirees in the private sector (myself included) don't expect to do it at 100% of their salary. Obviously you need less money when you are retired (house paid off or down sized, no kids screaming for food, etc.) So no I do not believe in protecting the sacred institution.

BUT schools are the centers of a community. What about the parents that cannot transport their kid to another school with a voucher? Also are we going to overcrowd the schools that work now? What about other childhood factors like asking your classmate (who lives in the same neighborhood as you because it is the community school) if they want to play some basketball after school. That is why I say no vouchers and improve the schools we have.

[Collegeboy]

Shartley I read you post and understood it. My reply was directed to the child’s decision. I know that you said there will be parents and such which will help the child in making a decision, but when it comes down to it the child will make the decision. Hence what I typed. Maybe read and understand before your post.

I am not a fan of the system you pose. The way it works in schools now is that every school offers the very basic course line (here in Alabama it is 4 history, 4 math, 4 science, 4 English, 1 foreign language, 1 art, 1 PE, the rest electives.

Now if you are going straight into a trade you can take vocational classes or you can COOP. If you are going to college you can take the upper level elective courses along with the other upper level courses you choose from the 4 x 4 system.

[Viral]

Originally posted by shartley
[B]If you read your post again, you indeed did attack me. You attacked me, my parenting skills, my decision making, etc. You also called my daughter lazy, when the real truth is far from it. You did not simply debate points made, but attacked me and my family.[B]

I'm glad that home schooling has worked out for you. I have personally known about a dozen people who have been home schooled and in every one of those cases, it was a disaster. So when I saw your post on here where you were proposing changes to the educational system, and then proudly proclaimed that 2(?) of your children had been home schooled, I felt obligated to post my opposite opinion on the subject. It worked for you, and that's wonderful, but for most people, the parents either don't have the time or simply aren't qualified to give their child a good education. I think mentioning homeschooling as a viable alternative to a formal education to the general public is a huge mistake. And I still stand by that.

Originally posted by shartley
If your sister was home schooled, you would know that they have to plan and present a complete curriculum to the state. All classes and materials must be approved. It is JUST like being in school, but with more flexible surroundings and scheduling.

Honestly, I don't know much about the mechanics of it. Since you shared some of your personal story, I'll do the same. I have two siblings, a brother who was 4 years younger than me, and a sister, 12 years younger. My brother was diagnosed with testicular cancer at 19, fought it for 2 years and passed away at 21. My sister took this especially hard and didn't do well in school after that, even though she's extremely intelligent. My mom eventually took her out of school and put her into a private school for 2 years. When that didn't work, she tried home schooling for a year. (obviously by this time I was already long since graduated and lived 2 hours away - hence I wasn't there for any daily assignments, etc). It was a miserable failure. She eventually went back to public school and graduated on time, barely. My mother is highly educated (a CCRN advanced degree, equivelant a Masters in Nursing) and dropped completely out of work for that year. I also have 2 cousins who were home schooled, also both complete failures. Cody and I went to public school and both came away with great educations, while Jenny, arguably the smartest of the 3 of us, squeaked by with bits and pieces of a cobbled-together education. I also know about 10 friends who were homeschooled for at least part of their education. And while they all "loved it", they didn't benefit from it. Again I would state a successful homeschooled student is the exception rather than the norm.

Originally posted by shartley

My problem with home schooling is that it's almost never just about a parent wanting to give their child the best possible education from the start. While I'm sure there are cases, for the most part, it's usually a last resort solution for a problem child. Every personal story I know of can be summed up with "My child was doing poorly in school for XYZ reason, we tried everything, nothing worked so we pulled them out of school and home schooled them." The story you told here about your daugher was exactly this same scenario. So while it may have seemed like I was attacking you personally, I wasn't. I am strictly against the concept of "fixing" a problem child with home schooling.
We need to make sure our schools are equipped to handle kids of all abilities so that home schooling isn't even necessary.

Originally posted by shartley

Let me ask you this. In a perfect situation, would you have rather had your kids be in public school and been completely happy with the education they received, or would you have rather home schooled them just like you did?

Originally posted by shartley

If I thought about passing personal judgement, then I would indeed keep that to myself. Once again, it was never my intention to attack you or your family. But anything short of severe mental illness or retardation that keeps a child from passing a quality public school is a problem that can and should be solved in the school. We need to be making our schools better with more money and better teachers, not solving our educational problems by turning our backs on the schools with home schooling and apprenticeships as replacements.

--Viral

[Vendetta]

I have to ask, when did all this home schooling start? I don't have(or want) kids, and it didn't exist in Miami when I was in school (1976-1988). It has always been my opinion that our public education system as good as the students (and parents) want to make it for themselves. We had an option to go to a tradeschool-like highschool if we wanted. Or to take AP classes to prepare for college.