the American view of world history vs everyone else's

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Very true, and then imagine who was writing the books further back in history?

Makes you really wonder if 'any' of our history can really be trusted. All old books were written by people that won the battles or events. They could have written what they liked. And often did to appease the people who did win etc.

Already in our recent history we see people changing history and it getting accepted by many. Your books are an example, and the Movie about the Enigma machine is another.

"Until the lions have their own historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter" - African proverb

In theory, more recent historical works should be more accurate, as previously secret documents are declassified, and more personal memoirs come to light

Get enough people to believe something... and it's true.

The Big Lie theory. Well-illustrated in Orwell's 1984.

----

For two examples of Canadian mistreatment of history, it is commonly beleived here that "we" (Britain and the Canadian colonies) won the War of 1812. Which is factually akin to the USA saying they won the war in Vietnam. In both cases, the side that won most of the battles gave their opponents nearly all they wanted in exchange for 'peace with honour'.

Canadians also believe that US influence ended our last attempt to build a domestic fighter-jet, The Avro Arrow, 45 years ago. And that the Arrow was such a masterpeice that it could still be a competitive combat aircraft today. Both false. It was a really expensive R&D project and the per-unit price of the aircraft made it impossible to sell, even to the RCAF. Technologically, it was probably most comparable to the F4-Phantom.

I think another idea commonly beleived in Canada, the UK and America is that We beat the Germans in WW2, greatly helped by a successful bombing campaign. In truth, most bombs fell an average of three miles from their intended targets, and German armaments production continued to rise each month until late 1944. Meanwhile, almost 90% of the German Army was fighting the Russians, not us. They deserve most of the credit (though our materiel support to them was important).

[Jeffy-CanCon]

the french people posed THE GREATEST RESISTANCE known to man kind... the french government rolled over in what, 2 weeks?

(A) France surrendered in six weeks.
(B) The French people put up essentially no resistance for the first couple of years of occupation. The Germans had much bigger problems with partisans in both Yugoslavia and Russia.

[Eagle]

Unless someone accually surrenders, how do you say who won? In Vietnam, we won more battles, and took fewer casualties, but we went about it in the wrong fashion, fell back to often without a fight 'for political reasons'. It was fought by the politicians in Washington instead of in the jungle.

As for frog, er, I mean French participation in our Revolution, it took a while for the military help to arrive, but the financial help was there much earlier.

[PyRo]

Contrary to apparent popular belief, the French only actively joined our fight in the American Revolution AFTER the turning point in that war had already been fought, the Battle of Saratoga.

They, the French, were'nt going to throw their chips in until they were sure we were going to win.

I left that out and was hoping no one would catch it. They did help us providing arms, training and other things covertly. It was only after victory was ensured that they openly helped us.

[SlartyBartFast]

Get enough people to believe something... and it's true.

Hmm. Like Evil Soviet Empires and Iraqi WMDs?

The Power of Nightmares



The whole transcription in one pdf: http://silt3.com/tpon.pdf

[SlartyBartFast]

America's involvement in WWII until Pearl Harbour was a financial one.

Uhm, the British paid for everything they were sent. First with payment in gold, then when that ran out the lend/lease program was started.

America owes its economic might to the money made during the second world war.

From a brit in another discussion sometime:

In terms of US contribution in WWII yes of course their contribution was critical at many stages in the European theatre.

Even in before 1941 they were contributing in many ways. The Browning machine guns that armed the Spitfires and Hurricanes were American, the 100 Octane fuel that squeezed an extra few mph out of them came from refineries in the Americas (Albeit Shell owned). There was also their production of ammunition and other items.

All this was in the form of business transactions though rather than American altruism. We paid in cold hard cash, and their companies made a cold hard profit. The 1940's economic boom that established them as the worlds economic powerhouse had its foundation in our gold. It was only when the gold was in danger of running out that they implemented lend/lease. We paid on credit, and paid in full. Don't let any American tell you different. In fairness to the Americans this commercially hardnosed attitude was a result of our (and everyone elses save the Finns) failure to repay debts from WWI, although we did equip the American armies in WWI.

Once America entered the war the floodgates really opened, but by 1944 only 25% of our material came from America. Their production of transports, aircraft carriers and items such as Sherman tanks was crucial however and should not be overlooked.

It was far from one way traffic however. We gave them Radar, and the jet engine. The first American jet fighter used a British engine, as did the famous Sabre of the Korean war (the Russian MiG15 also used a British engine in a strange twist of history). We also gave them the Merlin engine that powered the famous P51 that allowed them to carry out their daylight bombing campaign. Half the American troops landed on D-Day landed from Royal Navy vessels. All of them were based in the UK prior to D-Day. A million Commonwealth troops fought the Japanese.

Its entirely true to say we could not have won without them, but we may not have lost.

Its also true that without us they would not have landed in Europe, and may not have defeated the Japanese.

[PyRo]

Rail guns or the England gun as it was known within German circles was still in the development stage when the D Day landings took place...so you are out by a few years there.

The Nazi's rocket V2 installations were still in effect more or less until the end of the war..we are talking months here not years...again night raids were cause of the installations demise not daylight raids.

U Boats had an effect (not the effect the propoganda machine said though) but they were crippled very quickly (bases) by english bomber night raids.

One thing though, had America not been there, their would have been no D-day. If their was it would have been smaller and probably deleayed by months or years. This would give the Germans more time to bomb and develop their rail gun.

[PyRo]

Makes you really wonder if 'any' of our history can really be trusted. All old books were written by people that won the battles or events. They could have written what they liked. And often did to appease the people who did win etc.

I have German books and diarys written during and after both world wars, so they're not all written by the victors.

[Eric Cartman]

Ever see that Family Guy episode called "The Road To Europe"? Brian and Stewie are riding along on the top of a double decker tour bus in Munich and their tour gide is showing all of the sites when Brian asks about the rather large gap in the historical pamphlets between 1939 and 1945. The guide insists "Everyvone vas on vacation" Brian says "Wait a minute, Germany invaded Poland in 1939" The guide cuts him off "Ve vere invited! Punch vas served! Check vis Poland!" Brian keeps on at him 'till he finally freaks out, snaps a sig heil salute and goes off on a tirade in German (which I'd love to have transalted!).
That's gotta be my favourite episode.

I realize that to call this 'relevant' is really stretching it, but I figured I'd share anyway

[Lohman446]

We are taught that Americans like to think they are helping more often than not. It was our planning and bombing raids that burnt Germany to the ground, and ended the war, raiding by night and very successfully. The Americans tried to bomb the Germans in the day and lost hundreds and hundreds of planes and men and made little or no impression. Anyone taught anything else?

I would argue that those daytime bombing runs (and bombing during day and night were both... umm poor) were an act of courage and kept pressure on the Germans constantly between the two of them. I would argue that the dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan allowed all the allies to focus on one front, and saved the Russians to allow them to take Germany - I don't necesarrily think that the western allies neded to do anything but keep the Germans occupied.

As for the idea of helping... I highly doubt that there is ever any person leading who does not think they are helping. I mean, Hitler thought he was helping... regardless of what happens in Iraq we think we are helping, I think history at least in Iraq will judge this as an imperialistic attack. I think this is true of everything, I doubt anyone gets up in the morning and say "Let's do something purely evil today". I mean, even our dropping of nuclear weapons was justified in our minds.

[Head knight of Ni]

the french people posed THE GREATEST RESISTANCE known to man kind... the french government rolled over in what, 2 weeks?


and actualy i believ the pollish captured the enigma, and was then sent to england... im unsure on that.

France did put up a good resistance effort. The only reason they were defeated so quickly was due to the fact they relied upon the maginot line(a formidible fortification on the shared border with Germany). Unfortunately the line didn't stretch along belgiums border. The Germans rolled through belgium then around the maginot line into interum france. The first people we fought in North Africa were infact french nazi's.

And I believe poland made a machine that could decipher codes gave the codes to the british, By this time they knew they were to be invaded, then moved units into the mountains and fought hard.

IMO the worst part of current teachings in america is the downplay of Canada's role in WWII.

[Miscue]

Mel Brooks' accounting of world history is the only one that I believe to be accurate.

[B.A.M.]

The victors write the history books enough said.

[Miscue]

The victors write the history books enough said.

The losers get an allotment of land where they can run a casino.

[B.A.M.]

The losers get an allotment of land where they can run a casino.

I guess thats true