the American view of world history vs everyone else's

[manike]

Do you really think Americans are really that stupid?

Not all of them by any means. But they do on average tend to have a limit knowledge of issues extending beyond America.

[Boski51]

Not all of them by any means. But they do on average tend to have a limit knowledge of issues extending beyond America.

As do the average of any country outside America about Americans.

[manike]

As do the average of any country outside America about Americans.

Absolutely untrue.

American movies, TV shows, books, magazines, News shows, cultures, music etc, extend to every civilised country in the world that I have travelled to. And I've travelled pretty far and wide.

The outside world knows, and has the ability to know, a lot more about America than America does about the outside world.

You know, I've been asked 'what language we speak in England', 'was it hard to learn the language when I came here', 'where is England', 'do you have computers in England'.

I don't think any European Country, or civilised country would have asked a travelling American that? Maybe. But I doubt it, and not as commonly as it occurs here.

Which countries have you visited to make your judgement? How long have you had a passport?

[magsRus]

I know that in Vietnam they called it the "American War"

[Jeffy-CanCon]

...

shame on you jeffy you Should know that the Halifax class frigates are considered
amongst the best of the class.

So my Navy buddies tell me, but you have to admit the little boat with the machine gun is a pretty good approximation of the WW2 corvettes that made up most of our Navy.

[xXHavokXx]

Absolutely untrue.

American movies, TV shows, books, magazines, News shows, cultures, music etc, extend to every civilised country in the world that I have travelled to. And I've travelled pretty far and wide.

The outside world knows, and has the ability to know, a lot more about America than America does about the outside world.

You know, I've been asked 'what language we speak in England', 'was it hard to learn the language when I came here', 'where is England', 'do you have computers in England'.

I don't think any European Country, or civilised country would have asked a travelling American that? Maybe. But I doubt it, and not as commonly as it occurs here.

Which countries have you visited to make your judgement? How long have you had a passport?

Hahaha. And Simon is right, you can go to other coutnries and watch our TV channels basically everywhere you go.

One problem other countries are having is that they are losing some of their cultural idenities and having them replaced by ours. At LAX last year I met a group of Germans who used as much slang as I do and they live in Germany.

[magsRus]

YEah, germany is really really ashamed of anything related to Hitler. We have more Nazis in the US than germany.
But I just got this box set called victory at sea that talks all about the war at sea. We officially didnt join the "war" untill 1941 but we had been giving the British and French weapons, supplies and had been helping cover supply ships against the german U-boats.

90% of countries will teach whatever story will make them look more the hero. Germany I feel is the most honest about the war since they are the ones who started it and have no reason to bend the truth since...well, they lost

A lot of Germans that lived through the aftermath of WWI (depression) viewed Hitler as a hero from bringing them out of their depression. By putting the country in a major arms race he gave jobs to the unemployed which evenutally pulled them out, and also I know you didnt stat this but many Germans still deny the fact that there was never a Holocaust. So I wouldnt be surpised if you found some 80 year old germans saying Hitler was more of a Hero.

[SlartyBartFast]

considering how effective that boat and crewman are why would we need more?

And considering the damage to the USS Cole, it would seem that small boats are the best weapong against the best armed ships....

[bleachit]

And considering the damage to the USS Cole, it would seem that small boats are the best weapong against the best armed ships....

if small boats where the best weapons, then the USS Cole would be at the bottom of the ocean, which its not....

[Jeffy-CanCon]

And considering the damage to the USS Cole, it would seem that small boats are the best weapong against the best armed ships....

Honestly, why say something like that?

Anyway... historically there have been a couple of attempts to replace capital warships with small & fast boats with new weapons. The first was the "jeune ecole" of the 1880's (approx), which proposed attacking armoured battleships with swarms of motor-torpedo boats. The battleship-fleet owning navies just added "torpedo boat destroyers" to their formations, and effectively countered the threat. In the late 20thC the missile boat was supposed to fulfill the prophecy. The Egyptians had some success againt the Israelis in 1973 with it, though in fairness the Israeli destroyers were pretty outdated. Countermeasures, anti-missiles and CIWS are now thought to have largely dealt with the missile-boat threat.

[MarkM]

Do you really think Americans are really that stupid? I find this entire thread depressing as hell. The world has really gone anti-american and even some Americans are jumping on the band wagon....That's sad.

I don't think that any of the allied soldiers or Marines that paid the ultimate price on the killing grounds of Europe, The Pacific Islands or anywhere else would agree with you all that any one nation won WW2. The Brits didn't and nor did the Yanks.

Geo politics is much like paintball....it's a team thing.

Hate America or dislike Americans all you want. We'll be there to help out next time you need us. We are stupid like that.



One of the 54,000,000 stupid Americans.

I am not hating on America, however much you would like me to say that..which I haven't. An American posted the picture.... In America you must have those tv programmes where a reporter or whoever asks people questions in the street and the answers are far from accurate..we have the same programmes here and the answers run out about the same...you through your career choice get to see other things from around the world in both peacetime and not, many don't and believe what the media and their friends tell them...this is the point of the thread.
Why is it that any time someone who is not a American makes any comment about America in any form we are automatically hating on America. The UK is not perfect nor is America.
You might have got depressed reading this thread but then with the exception of myself, Manike and Bolter all the other replies are by Americans...ok Jeff is Canadian but his comments haven't been postive either but accurate they have been. Add to the dicussion about American percieved truths...not ones that are to be proved in the future. I am pretty happy that America is there as an ally to the UK. The likelyhood of America helping in the same way as they did in WWII is not going to happen with todays push button wars.
The Iraq situation I am not going to comment on other than to say it needed to be done ...I won't make any more of this but will say that I am not nor ever was against Saddam being removed.

[splatattack33]

this is a funny thread to cathc my eye b/c liek for a while ive got alot of ppl pissed off at me b/c my views for example,1.ppl dont realize that it says to wage war on the infidels in the quran so they dont get it that if they were brought up by the quran they would think the same way 2. ppl have been telling me that Vladimir Lenin was a bad person because he was a communist and he screwed russia over soo bad well their wrong b/c russia has been in the dumps forever and prolly always will be 3. Adolf Hitler,(a) was not as stupid and a bad amn as many ppl believe he was(b)he was just getting back what we took away from them at the end of WWI(c) ppl think he is the worst person ever hello can you be any dumber look at ho chi mien(sp) the dictator of vietnam he killed just as many or more ppl as hitler did but noone knows that as did stalin but some ppl just dont get it 4. i believe that we are taught the worng things in our schools we are alwasy looking at the "enemys" as the bad ppl but if we were from other countries we would be viewing the US as the enemy and the bad guy so its pretty stupid

[SlartyBartFast]

Honestly, why say something like that?

The clap was for the quote above not the attack on the Cole.

The comment on the Cole was to point out that you don't need to flaunt your muscle to successfully attack or defend yourself, that perhaps that little boat could still be effective...

Perhaps in retrospect it was in poor taste. But, whatever...

Why does no American step up to bat and ask why other Americans are such sphincters posting pictures and making other comments mocking other country's armed forces and even the valour of their people?

Why is it that as Canadians we have to put up and smile politely when Americans belittle our efforts and contributions and then hold our tongue while they extoll their own virtues to the exclusion of all others (or even worse, put up with them complaining that we aren't grateful enough or aren't singing their praises enough)?

Why is it when some American belittles our country a Canadian is bound to be an arse and agree? Why do we compare ourselves to the Americans when we have as much (or in some peoples opinion, more) to be proud of as they do? Why is it we get all filled with angst when historically Canada has always pulled more than our weight when it counted.

When the chips are down and our help is required for the right reasons, we're there. WW1, WW2, Korea all HUGE implications. We stepped up during Gulf War 1 and continued to patrol the gulf during the Iraq invasion freeing up critical resources (Americans DARE mock us or complain we weren't there when we did more than the vast majority of back-end kissers who signed on to the coalition of the deceived), our troops and police are there in Haiti, they saw the worst of Rowanda and Bosnia and kept the peace for years on Crete. In Afghanistan, our elite troops were instrumental and we held the fort when the Americans decided to forget about Bin Laden and go off on a tangent in Iraq. Hell, we didn't even put the Americans to the shame they should have been for the bombing and killing of our troops.

We pull our weight and allow the Americans some control over our sovereignty participating in NORAD. In NATO, our day to day participation is/was low (but then again the Soviet menace was pretty much smoke and mirrors anyway, read the link to the Power of Nightmares) but when it counted we were there for the attack on Serbia and we've played important roles elsewhere.

Are out troops underfunded? For what they're asked to do, definitely. As compared to other nations? Debatable. Once we cover our commitments, we just have higher priorities as a nation than bullying the world. The first American to mock the funding or size of another nations armed forces should be responsible for unleashing the litany of stupidity and misdeeds that can be easily dug up on the US military.

It pisses me off. First the historically and self-indulgent self consciousness of my fellow Canadians then the hypocrisy of having Americans lay down the hate/mockery and get all pissed when even simple truths or mere differences of opinion or perspective point out that they're not the only ones on centre stage.

It's crazy really. Look at the hate and mocking that spews from many of the right-wing, flag waving, and chest thumping Americans on AO and is it really a wonder that people from other nations get a little fed up with it all? Every one of these threads ends up being the same. Americans mocking Europe, belittling France, laughing at Canada, then *****ing and complaining that America doesn't get no respect.

What's amazing is the Americans that actually seem to be genuinely puzzled as to why other nations have such jaded view of them.

While I admire Boski51's view that it's a "team effort", I am puzzled that he focuses more on the perceived "America Hating" when there has been little to none of that and simple discussion of the fact it all WAS a team effort and the complete disregard of fellow Americans who proclaim the superiority of the US and their unique claim to lime light and acclaim.

On topic, I think this underlines a big difference between historical perspective in Canada and the US.

Americans teach their history from virtually only their perspective. IMO so do the French. And although both of them think of themselves as superior and less arrogant than the other, amusingly, they both think EXACTLY the same of each other. French, American, and to a degree German mentality seems to preclude admitting that they are merely human and attempt to show no mistakes were ever made or that those that suffered from those mistakes just had it coming or try and justify that the mistake was "for the better good" and sweep the problem under the carpet. (The Germans have national vacations. :rotfl: I loved that family guy episode.)

Canadians on the other hand, except perhaps in Quebec with respect to Canadian history, try to be so inclusive in their view of history that they lose the reflex of demonstrating their well deserved pride in our efforts and contributions. Or, we simply fail to teach history from out own perspective at all. Then, we seem incapable as a nation of simply admitting something bad happened and moving on. We also seem incapable of celebrating something good lest someone's feelings are hurt.

The British probably are more balanced than most. While they won't teach the totality of what happened during their conquests, I think that they know more about the horrors and questionable behaviour their own people committed and will admit to the bad, while not dwelling on it, as well as proclaim the good. But, having British family, I know they certainly have their own quirks and obsessions.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

this is a funny thread to cathc my eye b/c liek for a while ive got alot of ppl pissed off at me b/c my views for example,1.ppl dont realize that it says to wage war on the infidels in the quran so they dont get it that if they were brought up by the quran they would think the same way 2. ppl have been telling me that Vladimir Lenin was a bad person because he was a communist and he screwed russia over soo bad well their wrong b/c russia has been in the dumps forever and prolly always will be 3. Adolf Hitler,(a) was not as stupid and a bad amn as many ppl believe he was(b)he was just getting back what we took away from them at the end of WWI(c) ppl think he is the worst person ever hello can you be any dumber look at ho chi mien(sp) the dictator of vietnam he killed just as many or more ppl as hitler did but noone knows that as did stalin but some ppl just dont get it 4. i believe that we are taught the worng things in our schools we are alwasy looking at the "enemys" as the bad ppl but if we were from other countries we would be viewing the US as the enemy and the bad guy so its pretty stupid

Wow. That's a mouthful.

You are right about the fact that all people see themselves and their country as basically good and right. It's pretty hard to sell a history book (or newspaper) that says otherwise. I beleive it was Lenny Bruce who said "If you are going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you."

On your other ideas:

Lenin - not one of the 20thC's worst political leaders, but not a nice guy, either. Leninism' "dictatorship of the proletariat" became what we know as communism, rather than the earlier Marxism. In Lenin's theory, the dictatorship period was supposed to be a relatively brief transition phase to pure communism. the most charitable thing you can say about Lenin and his ideas is that he was naive or ignorant of human nature. His deputies were much more bloodthirsty and power-hungry.

Russia - has always been "backward" relative to Europe, but not always actually poor. Before the Revolution they were a net exporter of food. Under the communists, they could not even feed themselves. For that you should probably blame Stalin.

Ho Chi Minh - was not responsible for near as many deaths as Hitler or Stalin. If he was, there would be no one alive today in Vietnam, Laos or Cambodia. You may be confusing him with his next-door neighbour Pol Pot, who spent a couple of years trying to return Cambodia to the stone age. Even then, the death toll is a fraction of Hitler's or Stalin's.

Hitler - probably wasn't stupid, though he did have an irrational tendency to overrule his professional advisors based on his personal visions. He was a very bad man, and he did a lot more than merely try to retake lands Germany lost in WW1. And in case you'd missed that day in school, let's remember that the Germans started WW1. In WW2 Hitler invaded seven additional countries that were never part of the German or Austro-Hungarian Empires. Plus four others where he sent troops to "help" his Italian allies. And lets not forget that his racist policies resulted in 10 million civilian deaths. Only Stalin and possibly Mao did worse.

[xXHavokXx]

Slarty,

I found you post to be well written and in truth an excellent view into a rather itelligent person's mind about things like this trans-border bickering.

Personally I think some Americans like myself take this high and mighty attitude due to the images we see on TV. Everday someone across the globe is shown rioting burning our flag and spouting off their ideas, burning effigies of our leaders and basically pronouncing all of us to be arrogant, stupid imperialists. When we hear someone in tehran say "death to all Americans we take it personally as it means all 300 million of us.Obviously if that many people hate us they must be jealous of something or something This attitude carries over to more than just thinking, it comes out in how we percieve ourselves.. Coupled with our amazing militaries ( Largest Navy, !st and Second Largest Airforces, Boys on the ground like Army and others), our larger than average genatalia and the fact that American culture, images music, movies, clothing, cars, ideas and media is widespread we get a sense of enormity abovce that of the world.

I think the reason people make jokes about the Canadian military is that it is barely represented. The American military is portrayed in movies and on the news. We break traditional ideas and create new standards, such as our super carriers, our subs, the F117a , B2, B1 , F22,. The f16 is a hugely distributed fighter jet, seeing it on the news relates back to America. Building these things isn't the top priority for Canada so they don't do it, no problem it just doesn't get the notoriety. The Brits came up with the Harrier, so they get a little fame from that. Plus if you look at it, when our allies needs new weapons, we supply them alot of the time( Apache, F15,F16, P3, F4, F105), when their Spec ops people need training, we train with them. People know this and it gets attention.We just have better PR people.

Every country on Earth proclaims itself to be the greatest place on earth, everyone in the world will see themselves that way. Just like you're proud to be a Canadian, I'm proud to be an American.


Sorry if this makes no sense I'm in a thermo-fluids lecture trying to think about shockwaves in nozzles and this at the same time.