LOL Looks like Monday is national "Day without an Illegal" day ...

[geekwarrior]

This is true. I think most of us agree that illegal (yes, ILLEGAL, not illigle) immigration is not-so-good. I think we should make it a lot easier for people to get work permits to work in the US-- not live, work. For example, TJ is right over the border from San Ysidro in CA. The border provides for many jobs, and I think it would be beneficial to all involved to make the border slightly more permeable to WORKERS. I know that a lot of people, when crops are in season, drive from Mexico to the strawberry fields or whatnot and then back down, daily. They're following their job-- sometimes strawberries are in season in Mexico, sometimes in SoCal. They should be allowed to follow that industry with proper documentation.



Many illegal immigrants do pay taxes, in fact. Most companies won't doctor their books like that.

You don't seem to understand how the medical system works. If an American citizen cannot pay his/her hospital bill, it doesn't matter. If that person is in need of emergency care, like a broken arm, a hospital MUST, due to the Hippocratic Oath, take care of them.



Often. You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.

"Often" recent immigrants, illegal or no, are mistreated. "Often," Americans look upon recent Mexican immigrants, illegal or no, as trash. "Often," Mexicans are paid less for their work than white people, kinda like "often," women make what, 75, 80 cents to a man's dollar?



I don't agree. Illegal immigrants don't send their children to schools for the most part. Education is not important when you're scraping by to make ends meet. And according to my mother, who was a kid during the baby boom, your theory about overcrowding in schools is BS. She lived in the boonies in Western Pennsylvania and still went to an overcrowded school.



You obviously don't live in Southern California. Yes, there are some (white) kids who would take up these jobs. But the vast majority are spoiled brats, who wouldn't touch landscaping or harvesting with a ten foot pole.



Blatantly false. Most reputable businesses pay minimum wage.




Health care is not a "social program." Perhaps you meant welfare, or medicare. But regardless. I tried my very best not to get very frustrated at your spelling and grammar, which is atrocious. Perhaps if you are so worried about the public school system, you should begin by studying basic English.

I give up.....go do some research on our hospitals, schools, and economy.

[tropical_fishy]

I give up.....go do some research on our hospitals, schools, and economy.

Fortunately for you, that's waht I AM studying this semester at school. Hooray.

[Lohman446]

I give up.....go do some research on our hospitals, schools, and economy.

What point of hers are you debating so I can tell you you are wrong? Aside from the drain on our healthcare system presented by its abuse of people who shouldn't even be there and perhaps the amount of kids in school in some places, why don't you go ahead and show the flaws in the argument rather than your neat little sound bite. Lets talk about the economy - show me this fundamental flaw that illegal immigrants present? I would think its far more threatened by a welfare system that does not encourage people to take a job they may not like or doesn't pay "enough" for them.

[PyRo]

Many illegal immigrants do pay taxes, in fact. Most companies won't doctor their books like that.

I don't know where you live but around here almost every one of them is off the books. I'm speaking from experience working with them and with people who hire them. I'm not speaking about what I think and what I've heard.

You don't seem to understand how the medical system works. If an American citizen cannot pay his/her hospital bill, it doesn't matter. If that person is in need of emergency care, like a broken arm, a hospital MUST, due to the Hippocratic Oath, take care of them.

Yes but a citizen and non-citizen can both be making the same wage. The one not paying taxes can walk into the hospital and with no income showing never receive a bill. Now the person who is reporting their income may very well be liable for the bill or part or it because they show income while the other person does not. This is fact, a local paving company decided to put all their workers on the books. Many of them left because they did not want to loose the heath care. That's the reason they gave.

Often. You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.

"Often" recent immigrants, illegal or no, are mistreated. "Often," Americans look upon recent Mexican immigrants, illegal or no, as trash. "Often," Mexicans are paid less for their work than white people, kinda like "often," women make what, 75, 80 cents to a man's dollar?

This is completely irrelevant to the argument about whether or not they should be here.

I don't agree. Illegal immigrants don't send their children to schools for the most part. Education is not important when you're scraping by to make ends meet. And according to my mother, who was a kid during the baby boom, your theory about overcrowding in schools is BS. She lived in the boonies in Western Pennsylvania and still went to an overcrowded school.

I don't agree with you. They do send their children to schools. You can watch them all get on the bus every morning. Come here and watch as the bus goes to 13th street, the Hill, and the Orchard (where they all live). If they aren’t going to school just where are they going?
She lived in the boonies in Western Pennsylvania where even with people paying taxes their wouldn't be any money to build another school. You're right though schools aren’t overcrowded. We'll just ignore that their isn't enough money for the children to have books to take home, bussing to high school, or for anyone within 2 miles of the middle or elementary schools, extra curricular activities being almost non-existent now because of budget problems. They aren’t getting less money then before but their sure is an influx of Hispanics packing the buildings. We won't call that overcrowding though.

You obviously don't live in Southern California. Yes, there are some (white) kids who would take up these jobs. But the vast majority are spoiled brats, who wouldn't touch landscaping or harvesting with a ten foot pole.

You're right about something I'm not from Southern California. I'm from NY which is chock full of people from Honduras, Venezuela, and El Salvador. If the jobs were available people would take them I have no doubt about that.

Blatantly false. Most reputable businesses pay minimum wage.

Yes they do. But if I make $6.50 an hour and pay taxes and someone else makes $6.50 and hour and doesn't who is taking home more at the end of the week?

Health care is not a "social program." Perhaps you meant welfare, or Medicare. But regardless. I tried my very best not to get very frustrated at your spelling and grammar, which is atrocious. Perhaps if you are so worried about the public school system, you should begin by studying basic English.

I challenge you to find where I said health care is a social program. I’m going to disregard your spelling comment as a childish attempt to discredit an argument that you otherwise could not.

[tropical_fishy]

What point of hers are you debating so I can tell you you are wrong? Aside from the drain on our healthcare system presented by its abuse of people who shouldn't even be there and perhaps the amount of kids in school in some places, why don't you go ahead and show the flaws in the argument rather than your neat little sound bite. Lets talk about the economy - show me this fundamental flaw that illegal immigrants present? I would think its far more threatened by a welfare system that does not encourage people to take a job they may not like or doesn't pay "enough" for them.

We should be best friends. No really.


...<--- ellipse.

I don't deny that illegal immigrants place a huge strain on the hospitals in the areas in which they are prevelent. However, hospitals in predominately poor neighborhoods have the same problems as hospitals in areas where there are high instances of illegal immigrants.

Edit: have to go to class, but Pyro:

Healthcare and other social programs would have money freed up to do other things.

[PyRo]

We should be best friends. No really.


...<--- ellipse.

I don't deny that illegal immigrants place a huge strain on the hospitals in the areas in which they are prevelent. However, hospitals in predominately poor neighborhoods have the same problems as hospitals in areas where there are high instances of illegal immigrants.

The difference is the poor people arn't doing anything illegal by straining hospitals as they are citizens. Every hospital bed with an illegal alien in it is that much less room and money for an American citizen.

[Lohman446]

Yes but a citizen and non-citizen can both be making the same wage. The one not paying taxes can walk into the hospital and with no income showing never receive a bill. Now the person who is reporting their income may very well be liable for the bill or part or it because they show income while the other person does not. This is fact, a local paving company decided to put all their workers on the books. Many of them left because they did not want to loose the heath care. That's the reason they gave.
.

Perhaps we should address companies not handling there legal obligation to collect payroll taxes, or those individuals underreporting income. It would seem to me this is a major issue and someones immigration status has very minimal effect on the end result of it. Its too easy to let an argument fall into other issues that have little to do with immigration status.

[BigEvil]

So basically what you're saying is that those extra 20 people aren't really needed, everyone else just needs to put out 100%.

Just think if everyone in the U.S. put out 100% every day...

No, now today I have to go run around and do all of my own work now that I did everyone elses.

[PyRo]

Perhaps we should address companies not handling there legal obligation to collect payroll taxes, or those individuals underreporting income. It would seem to me this is a major issue and someones immigration status has very minimal effect on the end result of it. Its too easy to let an argument fall into other issues that have little to do with immigration status.

You're correct; this should be and lately has been being cracked down on more. However if the government found out I hadn't been paying taxes the IRS is going to send me a big bill complete with all my back taxes and fines to boot. If I don't pay that I will end up in jail for a couple months then still have to pay the IRS. On the other hand when the IRS finds out an undocumented alien isn't paying taxes they can't do anything. It would be much more difficult and expensive to go after someone without a social security number, a driver’s license, or other information. If they try to collect the person can simply more to the house next door and find a new job. The IRS will never be able to catch up to them.

You want examples of this type of thing? I know someone who was involved in a vehicular accident with an unlicensed Hispanic driver who was here without papers. The police took down the guy’s information, towed his car (some really cheap thing) which he didn't have registered or insured he just bought it from someone, found plates who knows where and started driving it around. They wrote him a whole stack of tickets (running a red light, failure to signal, no license, no registration, no insurance) which probably would have landed him in jail or at least with a huge fine, and sent him on his way. When the guy went to try and collect for the damages on his vehicle (it was clearly the other guy at fault) he had simply disappeared off the face of the earth. When he went to the person’s house they simply said they never heard of the guy. He called the police who said they couldn't do anything about it either. In my opinion the guy should have been put in jail until the thing was seen through then deported or at least some action taken against him to make sure this didn't happen again

You’re right in that they should crack down on businesses for hireling these people too. I'm a big supporter of making the penalties for hireling these people and the likelihood of being caught severe enough that it is no longer worth hireling these people. That would solve a few of the problems but now we have a new one. You now have millions of people here illegally with more coming every day unable to find any work at all. The solution to that? Offer them all a free ride home and give them an application to apply for a visa or citizenship if they want to come back.

[Lohman446]

You're correct, this should be and latley has been being cracked down on more. However if the government found out I hadn't been paying taxes the IRS is going to send me a big bill complete with all my back taxes and fines to boot. If I don't pay that I will end up in jail for a couple months then still have to pay the IRS. On the other hand when the IRS finds out an undocumented alien isn't paying taxes they can't do anything. It would be much more difficult and expensive to go after someone without a social security number, a drivers license, or other information. If they try to collect the person can simply more to the house next door and find a new job. The IRS will never be able to catch up to them.

You want examples of this type of thing? I know someone who was involved in a vehicular accident with an unlicensed Hispanic driver who was here without papers. The police took down the guys information, towed his car (some really cheap thing) which he didn't have registered or insured he just bought it from someone, found plates who knows where and started driving it around. They wrote him a whole stack of tickets (running a red light, failure to signale, no license, no registration, no insurance) which probably would have landed him in jail or at least with a huge fine, and sent him on his way. When the guy went to try and collect for the damages on his vehicle (it was clearly the other guy at fault) he had simply disapeared off the face of the earth. When he went to the persons house they simply said they never heard of the guy. He called the police who said they couldn't do anything about it either. In my opinion the guy should have been put in jail until the thing was seen through then deported or at least some action taken against him to make sure this didn't happen again.

The issue again is not illegal immigrants - its fraudlent paperwork, lack of paperwork, etc. This should be punished on the spot for anyone, regardless of immigration status. Its like saying a murder committed by an illegal was committed because they were illegal.

I have a problem with illegal immigration, but lets call it what it is, not doomsday scenarios that are stretches.

[PyRo]

The issue again is not illegal immigrants - its fraudlent paperwork, lack of paperwork, etc. This should be punished on the spot for anyone, regardless of immigration status. Its like saying a murder committed by an illegal was committed because they were illegal.

If the issue is about fradulent or lack of paperwork then that is somthing every illegal is guilty of.

[geekwarrior]

What point of hers are you debating so I can tell you you are wrong? Aside from the drain on our healthcare system presented by its abuse of people who shouldn't even be there and perhaps the amount of kids in school in some places, why don't you go ahead and show the flaws in the argument rather than your neat little sound bite. Lets talk about the economy - show me this fundamental flaw that illegal immigrants present? I would think its far more threatened by a welfare system that does not encourage people to take a job they may not like or doesn't pay "enough" for them.

First off, I meant infrastructure(I know, quite different), not economy, although they do effect the economy.

Second, if you read the whole thread, that wasnt all I added, I was actually sick of adding.

Hmmm...economy. Show me a state (maybe this doesnt apply to your state of MI) that can take in millions of uneducated poor people who leach off the government, and can still sustain itself. CA gets virtually nothing back from the FEDs for the problems we have here.

Schools: this is 2 fold. First they take money from our schools by not paying taxes. They also overcrowd the schools so that it is difficult for anybody to learn. Many do not speak English so it holds the whole class back. I think the graduation rate in the LA area is around %60. So not only is CA accepting uneducated people at alarming rate, these same people are having kids who are not getting an education. Saying most illegals dont go to school here is absurd. You say overcrowded in some areas? Its ALL of southern CA and that is alot of area.

Did you know what the majority of people said about the day without an immigrant. Their commute got cut in half. The freeways were not designed to hold an extra million plus people. This amounts to alot of traffic. Sitting in traffic means lost time for many people.


Hospitals. 13 hospitals in the LA area have closed down in the last few years due to not being able to operate. The hospitals that stay open are overcrowded and also hurting for money. This drives up medical costs because the hospitals have to charge more to make up for loss of unpaying patients.

Many of the Mexicans come here to work. But how many gangs have formed from the ranks of illegal immigrants. It may be a small percent, but given the huge number of immigrants that have come here, a small percent equals a HUGE problem. This makes communities unsafe, and also requires more police officers that means more taxes.

CA use to be the only state that had a huge problem with illegal immigration. Nobody but people from CA saw it as a problem. Now Arizona is getting overrun more than CA, and other states are starting to see how damaging it is to the area. Do you think this cry of stop is stemming from some racial feelings? Maybe for a small few. But the majority of people calling for an end to this are doing so because it is ruining the way of life.

You start talking guest worker program, there is a tidal wave coming across the border. Maybe we do need a guest worker program, but you know what, we have to secure the border first. The reason illegal immigration thrives is because people are always looking to do things cheaper. What is a gues worker program going to do if someone else is going to still cross illegally and say they will do the job for cheaper? Secure the border, and go after the employers, than talk about a guest worker program.

[Lohman446]

If the issue is about fradulent or lack of paperwork then that is somthing every illegal is guilty of.

And so would any legal with the same - well fradulent. I'm all for deporting illegal immigrants as needed. But still, a lot of these scenarios about health care, schools, economy are doomsday scenarios that need addressed in ways that have little to do with immigration.

[Lohman446]

Economic issues are a fault of economic issues, not immigration. But lets discuss one thing at a time - schools.

"The school system is overwhelmed by illegals". Ok.. in MI schools are supported primarly through property tax. In order to attend a school one must be able to verify residence (though school of choice law now allows crossing of district borders thats irrelevant to the discussion). In order to verify residence one must live somewhere. That somewhere must pay property taxes or risk seizure by the government. If one is renting, then rent must be being paid to someone who then pays the taxes. If owned, taxes are paid. You get the point, have to live somewhere, have to show residence, residence pays property tax...

Show me how someones immigration status causes a problem in overwhelming the school system - these are failures of school administrations, state governments, etc. Illegal immigration is not the key contributing factor.

Yeh, Im only going to discuss one item at a time, tell me when you want to move to the next and which one.

[PyRo]

And so would any legal with the same - well fradulent. I'm all for deporting illegal immigrants as needed. But still, a lot of these scenarios about health care, schools, economy are doomsday scenarios that need addressed in ways that have little to do with immigration.

True, but the 100% of the illegal ones are guilty of being here without paper work, etc. I don't have actual statistics, since they're illegal you can't collect statistics on them but I'd say a majority of them cheat on there taxes. It is much easier to get away with it when you don't have to fear an audit or any reprisal from the IRS.

Those who are here legally are one step ahead of the illegals in that they have papers to be here. If these people get caught cheating on their taxes they can expect reprisal from the IRS or in some cases deportation that the illegals didn't have to worry about. It doesn't seem fair to me and I'm sure that I'm not alone that those people who took the time and effort to legally become ccitizens should have be faced with more problems then those who did not.

If illegal aliens faced deportation for being caught cheating taxes or other offenses without being let go first (so they could vanish) it would greatly discourage people from comming here illegally.

Also if we can only take so many immigrants in every year when calculating that number we have to take into account how many illegal immigrants are incomming. As a result people who take the time to apply legally are turned away because we have to account for the illegals comming in.

Then the problem moves to language.
In all fairness I've worked with Spanish people before and most of them are eager to learn English. Most of them learned a bit of English from me and I learned a bit of Spanish from them. It isn't a big problem but occasionally you get people who refuse to make an attempt and demand you speak to them in Spanish. These people all got fired pretty quickly because they couldn't understand you when you told them to go cut down a tree but when you said lunch time they understood it fine. I can't blame that on any race though because their are plently of lazy people here already who will use whatever excuse they can to do as little work as possible.

It does however cost money to write everying in English as well as Spanish, run ESL programs in schools, have bi-lingual employees, etc.

I don't think language is a huge problem. You do get the people who refuse to learn English though. They have a large enough following saying that Spanish people should retain their language to be annoying but it doesn't go much further then that. Most of them are smart enough to realize that if they want to get anywhere they should learn to speak English.